BBC still attacking Sony over YLOD issue

[Zeus]

In tonight's episode of Watchdog, the host of the BBC show has continued to 'attack' Sony over the PS3's YLOD issue. Apparently, since the show last week, 430 more people came forward to say they have suffered from it and some are on their 'fourth' PS3.

[Eggman72]

Just watched the article..$ony are still claiming it is NOT and inherent fault...

[Knids]

when they released the ps2 my ps1 died,
when they released the ps3 my ps2 died,
when they released the slim ylod arrives.
hmmm....
:eek:

[deftonesmx17]

People are on their fourth PS3, pffftt, yeah right. Either they treat their consoles like utter crap or are lying. Hell, im only on my third 360....and we all know those actually do have a major issues.

[kajex]

Where can I view this video?

[Skunk123punk]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00mwfpz/Watchdog_24_09_2009/

Skunk

[phearlez]

In tonight's episode of Watchdog, the host of the BBC show has continued to 'attack' Sony over the PS3's YLOD issue. Apparently, since the show last week, 430 more people came forward to say they have suffered from it and some are on their 'fourth' PS3.

A full 430 people of the what 2 million sold in the UK? That would give us a failure rate of about 0.0002%. Thats not so bad is it? Maybe my numbers are off but I am not convinced that the "YLOD"-problem is actually an endemic issue like the pcb issues on the 360.

[ZeroDCX]

Guess I might be the only one ... but I'm still on my first of PS3 (60GB), Wii (D2A) and XBox360 (Falcon). I do have three PS2's though, two of them have the dreaded laser issue (which I don't care to fix) and my XBox (Thompson Drive) had to be replaced. But my PS1 (SCPH-7502) has been rock solid since day one ... and I'm a avid gamer. [But then again, I actually take care of my consoles].

*knocks on wood*

[ThreeDog]

A full 430 people of the what 2 million sold in the UK? That would give us a failure rate of about 0.0002%. Thats not so bad is it? Maybe my numbers are off but I am not convinced that the "YLOD"-problem is actually an endemic issue like the pcb issues on the 360.

From what i remember its at around 12,800 complaints since these people have come forward. Its in no way equal to the 360 failure rates not even close.

Watchdog won't let this go until Sony admits there's an issue with the solder jobs in some units which has been there since manufacturing which is the whole point of this. Sony is ignoring UK law and if they refuse to take action on this issue they will end up in court with higher fines than the repairs would cost.

[kcvfr400]

From what i remember its at around 12,800 complaints since these people have come forward. Its in no way equal to the 360 failure rates not even close.

Watchdog won't let this go until Sony admits there's an issue with the solder jobs in some units which has been there since manufacturing which is the whole point of this. Sony is ignoring UK law and if they refuse to take action on this issue they will end up in court with higher fines than the repairs would cost.

No the 12,000 is what Sony informed Watchdog was number of failures out of 2.5 million or as Anne Robinson said its what they will admit too as if there was as if to suggest it was alot more. Nobody likes to see a failed console not that I have ever suffered apart from my old lynx, but that still gives 0.5% failure rate for ps3 which is reasonable.

Its the high repair cost I think they maye should have gone after rather than Sony not fixing machines out of warranty which is perfectly reasonable. I think their research team are comparing it to the 360 style 3 yr warranty, which is needed in that case but not this.

[QrafTee]

when they released the ps2 my ps1 died,
when they released the ps3 my ps2 died,
when they released the slim ylod arrives.
hmmm....
:eek:Dude, did you piss off a witch doctor at some point in your life?

[Cantenna]

Good Grief!

DUST. YOUR PS3 IS DUSTY INSIDE (dumbasses)

Grow some balls people.

Follow a youtube video on how to dissassemble and compress air out the fan in the bottom of the unit.?????

This happens after 3 years.
EASY!

[msanchez]

A full 430 people of the what 2 million sold in the UK? That would give us a failure rate of about 0.0002%. Thats not so bad is it? Maybe my numbers are off but I am not convinced that the "YLOD"-problem is actually an endemic issue like the pcb issues on the 360.

I think people are mistaken by simply dismissing other's crappy luck as just that. How many 360 owners used to (some even now dare to) say that there's really no problem, and that it's all due to people treating their consoles like sh*t?

I think it's in everyones best interest to keep an open mind, and try to put yourselves in others shoes. I rather sony be responsible about these things now, and this way give me some peace of mind (not that I've ever had a problem with a sony, or any other console). Sure there are a lot of people that treat their consoles like crap, but there's also the ones that treat their consoles properly but got dealt a sh*tty hand.

I will say this though, 4 ps3s? whoever has gone through 4 ps3s is either:
a) lying
b) has the worst karma in the world
c) has the dirties house in the world
d) has the worst luck in the world
e) is doing it on purpose
f) a, b, c, d, e

The problem might be a manufacturer defect, but it seems it's pretty isolated, so in order to get 4 bad consoles one or all of the earlier has to apply to that person.

[iLLNESS]

Good Grief!

DUST. YOUR PS3 IS DUSTY INSIDE (dumbasses)

Grow some balls people.

Follow a youtube video on how to dissassemble and compress air out the fan in the bottom of the unit.?????

This happens after 3 years.
EASY!
yeah that nice little oven they had to reflow the solder to fix the ps3s in the first video must have had some compressed air in it as well to dust it off. that was the real fix.
lol

FYI, the issue they were fixing with the ps3 was pretty much the exact issue 360 has.

[ThreeDog]

No the 12,000 is what Sony informed Watchdog was number of failures out of 2.5 million or as Anne Robinson said its what they will admit too as if there was as if to suggest it was alot more. Nobody likes to see a failed console not that I have ever suffered apart from my old lynx, but that still gives 0.5% failure rate for ps3 which is reasonable.

Its the high repair cost I think they maye should have gone after rather than Sony not fixing machines out of warranty which is perfectly reasonable. I think their research team are comparing it to the 360 style 3 yr warranty, which is needed in that case but not this.

Okay i stand corrected thanks for that. I agree with you on the repair cost, i don't really see a point in a 3 year warranty either but sony could easily accept free repairs. They could use a couple of the sale of goods act clauses which would satisfy both sides 1: Goods must last a reasonable period of time 2: If the defect was present during manufacturing the product was never fit for sale (not the exact wording you get the point).

Sony wouldn't need to take any serious actions or admit they've been slightly done over by solder changes and the buyer gets what he needs.

P.S ever wonder what robinson is like between the sheets? :p:o

[msanchez]

..P.S ever wonder what robinson is like between the sheets? :p:o

I'm assuming that was the dark skinned chick....I was just thinking about that when I saw the first video a few days ago, one thing's for sure.... I wouldn't mind finding out GRRRRRRR!

[*StoneCold*]

yeah that nice little oven they had to reflow the solder to fix the ps3s in the first video must have had some compressed air in it as well to dust it off. that was the real fix.
lol

FYI, the issue they were fixing with the ps3 was pretty much the exact issue 360 has.

I remember back in the day when you used to be 1 of the best posters on ps2-newz, now your a complete fucking loser.

You lie so much about everything and butter ms up so much its sickening.

I don't know 1 single person who has this so called YLOD, yet i know quite a few people who got a RLOD because of their piss-poor PATHETIC 360 consoles.

Don't even try and compare any problems the PS3 ''MIGHT'' have to the problems the 360 has.

[MilkyJoe]

yeah that nice little oven they had to reflow the solder to fix the ps3s in the first video must have had some compressed air in it as well to dust it off. that was the real fix.
lol

FYI, the issue they were fixing with the ps3 was pretty much the exact issue 360 has.

Four letters which hold more credibility than any of your posts ever will:

RLOD


I'm assuming that was the dark skinned chick....I was just thinking about that when I saw the first video a few days ago, one thing's for sure.... I wouldn't mind finding out GRRRRRRR!

LOL No, it's the old ginger bird. I shudder at the thought.

"you are the weakest link, goodbye."

[grapeape]

Am I the only one having flashbacks of 2007? Reports of problems stream in, fanboys unite in complete denial. Console manufacturer denies there is a problem, fanboys blame the console owners, etc...etc....

Just look at craigslist and ebay at all the people either selling ps3's with the ylod or offering repair service for them...just in my town alone a craigslist search brings up 2 people offering repairs and 7 broken ps3's (on a side note, there are 5 people offering 360 repair and 19 broken 360's). There are 66 videos on youtube showing how to repair it. Hell I have fixed several myself (my own 60gig is going strong) and I live in a town of less than 10,000 people.

I think its pretty apparent that its not limited to a few consoles in the UK and that its a real issue. What I dont understand is the same problem I had with MS why in the world would people choose to allow themselves to potentially get screwed just out of fear that its a knock on their favorite consoles reputation? None of the rational people here are bashing Sony or the PS3 they are simply stating that Sony should step up and take care of the problem...why is that a bad thing?

[d33znutzEP]

YLOD is very minor, not even 1 percent of the problem, on top of that YLOD is caused by more than just one problem and it could be solved easily depending on the problem.

Most YLOD can be fixed by simply resetting the console. Some YLOD are due to hard drive failures... just reformat. Some are actually due in fact because of manufacturer issues, and have to be fixed professionally.

.05 percent of people in UK have this problem, compared to like a near 100% RROD with the 360's.

[msanchez]

..

LOL No, it's the old ginger bird. I shudder at the thought.

"you are the weakest link, goodbye."

Oh is that so?, well you never know what tricks granny has up her sleeves, or skirt..... in any case if you ever find out don't bother telling me; ignorance is bliss in this case.


YLOD is very minor, not even 1 percent of the problem, on top of that YLOD is caused by more than just one problem and it could be solved easily depending on the problem...

It is minor, but why not aim to erase the problem altogether? and if they've fixed it just be honest about it. "We had some problems with some early ps3s, we'll be responsible for fixing these units, but these problems have been corrected in the new slims" something like that. Sh*t happens, so nobody is going to want to crucify sony for that, but they will surely make a lot of enemies by denying that there's an issue, even if it is in 0.0000000000000001% of consoles.

Just because a very small % of people get it doesn't mean it's not a manufacturers defect. Sure getting the YOLD statistically might be as likely as your car getting struck by lightning, but guess what it happens, if you don't believe me ask my brothers neighbor who had his car fried by a lightning bolt a few weeks ago, and despite not having to cover it his insure did the right thing and covered it. Needless to say they probably have a customer for life.

[Cue]

Am I the only one having flashbacks of 2007? Reports of problems stream in, fanboys unite in complete denial. Console manufacturer denies there is a problem, fanboys blame the console owners, etc...etc....

Just look at craigslist and ebay at all the people either selling ps3's with the ylod or offering repair service for them...just in my town alone a craigslist search brings up 2 people offering repairs and 7 broken ps3's (on a side note, there are 5 people offering 360 repair and 19 broken 360's). There are 66 videos on youtube showing how to repair it. Hell I have fixed several myself (my own 60gig is going strong) and I live in a town of less than 10,000 people.

I think its pretty apparent that its not limited to a few consoles in the UK and that its a real issue. What I dont understand is the same problem I had with MS why in the world would people choose to allow themselves to potentially get screwed just out of fear that its a knock on their favorite consoles reputation? None of the rational people here are bashing Sony or the PS3 they are simply stating that Sony should step up and take care of the problem...why is that a bad thing?


I would love for watchdog to do some real investigation like you have done (a little more concrete than craigslist in one town but at least it was more than what watchdog had done). I just hated the fact that they flashed an x-ray image on screen and said our experts say there is a problem and performed unrelated repairs. I think that if watchdog actually performed an independent investigation they may be able to gather some meaningful statistics. instead of just saying "Sony we don't trust your numbers" they can prove it. If they did that we will have a leg to stand on and can fight for extended warranties or lower repair costs. I would really like some independent stats on failures because I think there may be problem with the BD drives myself.

[Nomad121]

Clearly a fake story that has some intention to destroy Sony's reputation. Think about guys, why would a watch dog program report two weeks in a row on the same story? The last time I watched my local watch dog program they always change the story week by week.

[kcvfr400]

Okay i stand corrected thanks for that. I agree with you on the repair cost, i don't really see a point in a 3 year warranty either but sony could easily accept free repairs. They could use a couple of the sale of goods act clauses which would satisfy both sides 1: Goods must last a reasonable period of time 2: If the defect was present during manufacturing the product was never fit for sale (not the exact wording you get the point).

Sony wouldn't need to take any serious actions or admit they've been slightly done over by solder changes and the buyer gets what he needs.

P.S ever wonder what robinson is like between the sheets? :p:o

I would have thought it would be all her in charge in bed lmao

[KTC]

i always thought the ps3 not reading disks was a bigger problem
just like mine and sony want £180 quid to fix i told them to shove it up there arse i maybe on my 8th 360 but it aint cost me a single penny to get it fixed

[kajex]

Unfortunately, I'm not able to view this outside of the UK. Is there another link anywhere that can work in the USA?

Thanks!

[exorcist1966]

Clearly a fake story that has some intention to destroy Sony's reputation. Think about guys, why would a watch dog program report two weeks in a row on the same story? The last time I watched my local watch dog program they always change the story week by week.

2 reasons for this.

1. BBC have no imagination when it comes to producing a tv programme.

2. M$ is paying them cos the new PS3 slim is f*#king them big time. :D

[technolust]

430 more people came forward.

Yeah right those 430 people proberly complaned ages ago and watchdog just wanted to stager this problem out over a few programs, are watchdog trying to make this problem look like an mp's expenses scandal? it sure looks that way.

crist havent Watchdog got anything better to do than go on some witch hunt after sony.

[(IRE)Wolfman]

The whole thing with Watchdog is BULL!

They have 3 guys saying things.

1. Respected guy who can't actually give them any bad news. Instead they use half of what he said or made what he said sound bad.

2. They use repair guys, who are competition to Sony. These guys word can't be trusted. Sony charge £150 for a replacement console with 3 months warrenty(inc delivery). These guys charge(not free) £120(not inc delivery) and no warranty. They say it might not even be repairable after they do there magic. In last weeks show 10 were repaired 4 broke again.
So nearly half have unusable bricks.

3. They use a Microsoft paid presenter.

[stigzy]

April i had the YLOD (60gb model lasted 1year 8 months)

To those people who say we treat consoles like crap I DID NOT
i spent 425 quid on that and it was kept well ventillated and Very clean

was told pay £128 done that got refurb

can no longer get continuous play cover as so many people have abused this insurance perhaps more YLOD's (WHO KNOWS)

just got an email off sony saying my copy of resident evil 5
is on its way FINALLY !!

been waiting since april for that ....not funny

[PcFish]

April i had the YLOD (60gb model lasted 1year 8 months)

To those people who say we treat consoles like crap I DID NOT
i spent 425 quid on that and it was kept well ventillated and Very clean


I'm in the same boat. I treated that thing better than I treated myself.
My 80 GB w BC died exactly 2 years after I bought it after trying to play COD5.
I paid the $160 as fast as I could. I was depressed for about a month until I got it back.

PS to the guy who said 430 of 2E6 is .000002% or whatever, at least learn how to do math.

[grapeape]

I would love for watchdog to do some real investigation like you have done (a little more concrete than craigslist in one town but at least it was more than what watchdog had done). I just hated the fact that they flashed an x-ray image on screen and said our experts say there is a problem and performed unrelated repairs. I think that if watchdog actually performed an independent investigation they may be able to gather some meaningful statistics. instead of just saying "Sony we don't trust your numbers" they can prove it. If they did that we will have a leg to stand on and can fight for extended warranties or lower repair costs. I would really like some independent stats on failures because I think there may be problem with the BD drives myself.

I really think it comes down to the solder issue. Its the early consoles that seem to have the problems (i have yet to see a 40gig or newer that had issues that weren't user induced beyond the expected odd doa). The ps3 had much better heat dissipation than the 360...so its taken a bit longer for the problems to become apparent on the early ones...but I do think its basically the same issue. Going lead free was great for the environment but lousy for home electronics. The whole lead free mandate was a clusterf*** anyway...there were really good solutions but members of IPC and RoHS basically all tried to patent up the processes for themselves so what ended up being produced was nowhere near the best solution...in the end the entire industry suffers due to greed. Its gotten better over the past couple years but the stuff that was being used just 4-5 years ago was crap...its brittle, has poor flow and poor heat tolerance. I've tried working with it, and even with years of experience including High Reliability Soldering training at nasa I still have trouble getting the stuff to bead properly, for every one good bead a have to wrestle through 3-4 cold solder joints.

[Cue]

I really think it comes down to the solder issue. Its the early consoles that seem to have the problems (i have yet to see a 40gig or newer that had issues that weren't user induced beyond the expected odd doa). The ps3 had much better heat dissipation than the 360...so its taken a bit longer for the problems to become apparent on the early ones...but I do think its basically the same issue. Going lead free was great for the environment but lousy for home electronics. The whole lead free mandate was a clusterf*** anyway...there were really good solutions but members of IPC and RoHS basically all tried to patent up the processes for themselves so what ended up being produced was nowhere near the best solution...in the end the entire industry suffers due to greed. Its gotten better over the past couple years but the stuff that was being used just 4-5 years ago was crap...its brittle, has poor flow and poor heat tolerance. I've tried working with it, and even with years of experience including High Reliability Soldering training at nasa I still have trouble getting the stuff to bead properly, for every one good bead a have to wrestle through 3-4 cold solder joints.

I agree lead-free solder didn't help the situation at all but I saw that as no reason for watchdog to decide this is an inherent problem to the PS3 for which Sony must pay heavily. It would actually become an industry wide problem with all electronics which use tin-silver-copper solders which is most electronics out there. Don't get me wrong I really wouldn't care if Sony had to extend the warranty or lower repair costs, actually scratch that I would care I would be happy about it but if I were being fair I would say there is no reason for them to do anything. I mentioned in the previous watchdog thread it would be really good if they found the actual cause because the trapped gas in the PCB is irrelevant to what they were repairing in the reflow oven, they should look into the actual cause instead of just resorting to the fallacy that if the repair is the same the cause is the same. I mentioned in that thread it could have been actual mechanical damage like dropping the thing, temperatures exceeding the melting point which as you probably know is unlikely because these lead free solders have higher melting points or what I mentioned in the other thread: thermal cycling; the most likely cause since the compliance is worse in these solders which could cause sub-critical cracking which in time results in failure. There is very little engineers can do to prevent thermal cycling when you turn the machine on and off during normal use. The only thing in the design which can slow this down (and only slow it down not prevent it) is to cool the thing efficiently when it's turned on something I think the PS3 does very well. Other than changing the solder used in the industry I can't think of anything they could have done in manufacturing or design to prevent it. You raise a good point though it would be interesting to see the failure rates for electronics before and after the industry's transition to lead-free solder.

[grapeape]

I agree lead-free solder didn't help the situation at all but I saw that as no reason for watchdog to decide this is an inherent problem to the PS3 for which Sony must pay heavily. It would actually become an industry wide problem with all electronics which use tin-silver-copper solders which is most electronics out there. Don't get me wrong I really wouldn't care if Sony had to extend the warranty or lower repair costs, actually scratch that I would care I would be happy about it but if I were being fair I would say there is no reason for them to do anything. I mentioned in the previous watchdog thread it would be really good if they found the actual cause because the trapped gas in the PCB is irrelevant to what they were repairing in the reflow oven, they should look into the actual cause instead of just resorting to the fallacy that if the repair is the same the cause is the same. I mentioned in that thread it could have been actual mechanical damage like dropping the thing, temperatures exceeding the melting point which as you probably know is unlikely because these lead free solders have higher melting points or what I mentioned in the other thread: thermal cycling; the most likely cause since the compliance is worse in these solders which could cause sub-critical cracking which in time results in failure. There is very little engineers can do to prevent thermal cycling when you turn the machine on and off during normal use. The only thing in the design which can slow this down (and only slow it down not prevent it) is to cool the thing efficiently when it's turned on something I think the PS3 does very well. Other than changing the solder used in the industry I can't think of anything they could have done in manufacturing or design to prevent it. You raise a good point though it would be interesting to see the failure rates for electronics before and after the industry's transition to lead-free solder.

One thing that people are forgetting is Watchdog also went after MS 2 times in 2007 (when fanboys were in denial) over 3rod and also again in March of this year over the disk scratching issue...so its not like Sony is getting picked on, but your right...I would like to seem them do a little research rather than just make guesses.

[Cue]

One thing that people are forgetting is Watchdog also went after MS 2 times in 2007 (when fanboys were in denial) over 3rod and also again in March of this year over the disk scratching issue...so its not like Sony is getting picked on, but your right...I would like to seem them do a little research rather than just make guesses.

You're absolutely right, they did, but we mustn't forget that the rates with the PS3 are not above the average for consumer electronics they are lower. This would mean we should now go after Nintendo simply because they are the only ones left even if their failure rates are low.
I don't know about the disc scratching issue but I hope watchdog did not tarnish MS's reputation without evidence. in fact I hope they didn't tarnish it even with evidence because MS have done everything they could plus some more to resolve any earlier problems. Not only reduce the heat produced in future 360's but offered a long warranty on any that may develop the problem, AND a warranty on the repaired item. They even offered a disc replacement program for selected games. I'm sure they would have done all games but due to legal reasons are limited to first party titles.

I just hope watchdog mentioned these things and hasn't turned into a show where they run down a company pulled out of a hat with empty threats and false accusations. It's my main issue with watchdog at the moment but I still thank them for looking after us little people.

[grapeape]

Your absolutely right, they did, but we mustn't forget that the rates with the PS3 are not above the average for consumer electronics they are lower. This would mean we should now go after Nintendo simply because they are the only ones left even if their failure rates are low.
I don't know about the disc scratching issue but I hope watchdog did not tarnish MS's reputation without evidence. in fact I hope they didn't tarnish it even with evidence because MS have done everything they could plus some more to resolve any earlier problems. Not only reduce the heat produced in future 360's but offered a long warranty on any that may develop the problem, AND a warranty on the repaired item. They even offered a disc replacement program for selected games. I'm sure they would have done all games but due to legal reasons are limited to first party titles.

I just hope watchdog mentioned these things and hasn't turned into a show where they run down a company pulled out of a hat with empty threats and false accusations. It's my main issue with watchdog at the moment but I still thank them for looking after us little people.

Back in 2007 when Watchdog went after MS the numbers at the time were relatively low too, MS was claiming under 3%

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-responds-to-watchdog

...perhaps they are just concerned that history will repeat itself...a little paranoid maybe but perhaps its better to err on the side of caution. You have to admit if you look at the history...the responses...etc...its eerily familiar, hopefully the outcome wont be.

[borbeatss]

I remember back in the day when you used to be 1 of the best posters on ps2-newz, now your a complete fucking loser.

You lie so much about everything and butter ms up so much its sickening.

I don't know 1 single person who has this so called YLOD, yet i know quite a few people who got a RLOD because of their piss-poor PATHETIC 360 consoles.

Don't even try and compare any problems the PS3 ''MIGHT'' have to the problems the 360 has.

Yeah dude.... you need to STFU. And quick. You started off well if this guy was actually acting this way. But then you started failing. Hard.

Let me break this down to you, because you don't know anyone with YLOD makes you think that this problem is not the same as 360's "inferior" GPU and CPU? Would you like to know the real problem? People like you. You know nothing, NOTHING. Yet you comment on the situation like you do? ROFL. You n00b, your statement is full of fail, as are you.

The YLOD is the EXACT same issue as the 360's. EXACT.

They both put out enough heat to literally unsolder the GPU from the motherboard, that is obvious. The method to fix them is the same, re-soldering the Ball Grid Array under the GPU. The only reason it happens to 360 more often is the motherboard is fitted in such a way that it is convex, and it bows right in the area of the GPU. PS3's are mounted flush from the factory. 360's are not. If the PS3 board was manipulated in this manner it would have the same symptoms. If you drill the 360's case it will not RROD. Or RROD around the same error rate as PS3 YLOD's. Those are facts. Logically, denying what I just said would make you look like a moron. So, I do suggest you go with my original advice on STFU'ing.

pwn.

[Cue]

Yeah dude.... you need to STFU. And quick. You started off well if this guy was actually acting this way. But then you started failing. Hard.

Let me break this down to you, because you don't know anyone with YLOD makes you think that this problem is not the same as 360's "inferior" GPU and CPU? Would you like to know the real problem? People like you. You know nothing, NOTHING. Yet you comment on the situation like you do? ROFL. You n00b, your statement is full of fail, as are you.

The YLOD is the EXACT same issue as the 360's. EXACT.

They both put out enough heat to literally unsolder the GPU from the motherboard, that is obvious. The method to fix them is the same, re-soldering the Ball Grid Array under the GPU. The only reason it happens to 360 more often is the motherboard is fitted in such a way that it is convex, and it bows right in the area of the GPU. PS3's are mounted flush from the factory. 360's are not. If the PS3 board was manipulated in this manner it would have the same symptoms. If you drill the 360's case it will not RROD. Or RROD around the same error rate as PS3 YLOD's. Those are facts. Logically, denying what I just said would make you look like a moron. So, I do suggest you go with my original advice on STFU'ing.

pwn.

Really? Is it always the same joints? maybe you should tell watchdog that because that would suggest a design problem. I'm being serious.

What you said after that is somewhat silly though what you're suggesting is if the PS3 was made/designed like the 360 it would fail just as much, no sh*t, but it's not.

Now I think this is slowly becoming a YLOD vs RROD thread which is not a good idea for the thread at all but I'mma letya finish.

[Cue]

Back in 2007 when Watchdog went after MS the numbers at the time were relatively low too, MS was claiming under 3%

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-responds-to-watchdog

...perhaps they are just concerned that history will repeat itself...a little paranoid maybe but perhaps its better to err on the side of caution. You have to admit if you look at the history...the responses...etc...its eerily familiar, hopefully the outcome wont be.


I remember in that watchdog episode they claimed "MS is aware of" the higher than expected errors.
very familiar and if the drive failure rate is as I expect, it would truly be history repeating itself for sony.

[ThreeDog]

http://playstationlifestyle.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2376 Thats gilksy's repair guide which is all over the web now (including the playstation forums) problem is the heatgun method barely works on the ps3 no sooner have you torched it and its working the solder pops again and the machine is dead which leads me to believe only a proper lead based reball will help for some units.

In some shots (pdf) you can actually see the cpu/gpu has gotten so hot they've burnt the metal plates holding them onto the board (pdf) its more than sufficient to melt the lead free solder (i think that's a launch unit btw) im not aware if the board flexes to break the connections though.

[Cue]

http://playstationlifestyle.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2376 Thats gilksy's repair guide which is all over the web now (including the playstation forums) problem is the heatgun method barely works on the ps3 no sooner have you torched it and its working the solder pops again and the machine is dead which leads me to believe only a proper lead based reball will help for some units.

In some shots (pdf) you can actually see the cpu/gpu has gotten so hot they've burnt the metal plates holding them onto the board (pdf) its more than sufficient to melt the lead free solder (i think that's a launch unit btw) im not aware if the board flexes to break the connections though.

Thanks for the information and videos.
I doubt the temperature gets hot enough to melt the lead free solder unless it's a symptom of an underlying problem eg the fan has litrally stopped or it has lost contact with the heatsink in which case lead solder will perform worse (not to mention the fact that the chip would fail before this). It is more likely fracturing or failing via subcritical cracking due to the non-compliance of these lead free solders like I mentioned above.
I assume you need to cool the solder slowly to reduce the chance of fracture (but I also assume these effects are negligible) and flexing is a real problem not just from mechanical flexing from say screwing the board too tightly but if the difference in coefficience of thermal expansion between the PCB and BGA is large you are flexing the thing when you turn your system on and off.


http://www.globalsmt.net/troubleshooter/reflow_cracked_joint.htm

[borbeatss]

Thanks for the information and videos.
I doubt the temperature gets hot enough to melt the lead free solder unless it's a symptom of an underlying problem eg the fan has litrally stopped or it has lost contact with the heatsink in which case lead solder will perform worse (not to mention the fact that the chip would fail before this). It is more likely fracturing or failing via subcritical cracking due to the non-compliance of these lead free solders like I mentioned above.
I assume you need to cool the solder slowly to reduce the chance of fracture (but I also assume these effects are negligible) and flexing is a real problem not just from mechanical flexing from say screwing the board too tightly but if the difference in coefficience of thermal expansion between the PCB and BGA is large you are flexing the thing when you turn your system on and off.


http://www.globalsmt.net/troubleshooter/reflow_cracked_joint.htm

Combine this with the 360's physical bending of the mobo, which puts tons of force on the joints, and BAM. That's RRoD. PS3 same thing, the joints crack over time, they are not forced to crack like the 360's though, different story. It all boils down to shitty solder. Cue is 100% bang on, n1 bro. Kudos.

[ThreeDog]

http://www.globalsmt.net/troubleshooter/reflow_cracked_joint.htm

Hey thanks for your link too that's pretty decent and i see your point, my melting assumption was that these manufacturers are using the cheap stuff not the higher grade higher temp solder.

Maybe its just time to start socketing this stuff for that extra control or give with board flexing, nvidia has had problems with most processes its tried maybe the fault is that these things are directly soldered to the pcb. You don't design a skyscraper too stiff it won't move in the wind, you simply allow the movement and dampen it at the top or the bottom.

[Cue]

Hey thanks for your link too that's pretty decent and i see your point, my melting assumption was that these manufacturers are using the cheap stuff not the higher grade higher temp solder.

Maybe its just time to start socketing this stuff for that extra control or give with board flexing, nvidia has had problems with most processes its tried maybe the fault is that these things are directly soldered to the pcb. You don't design a skyscraper too stiff it won't move in the wind, you simply allow the movement and dampen it at the top or the bottom.

Glad you found it useful. I think these tin-silver-copper solders are actually more expensive for the manufacturers not only in material cost but because they also have a higher melting temp than lead solder so power use goes up. I think this is offset by TAX savings though. They are forced to use them by law. It's the new standard material in consumer electronics all they can really do is reduce this mechanical flexing and thermal cycling by good board design and cooling efficiently.

Pin grid arrays are probably more reliable but I think the disadvantage is that they have a lower maximum array density.