BREAKING: Judge rules Nintendot ILLEGALLY protects systems', should be like WINDOWS!!!

[Zeus]

We have just heard that Nintendo has today lost a major court case against the Divineo group in the main court of Paris. Nintendo originally took the group to court over DS flash carts, however the judge today has ruled against Nintendo and suggested that they are purposely locking out developers from their consoles and things should be more like Windows where ANYONE can develop any application if they wish to.

The ramifications of this are huge, as it indicates that flash carts are actually legal. Moroever, it could have bigger implications for developers and the like because Nintendo is deemed to be 'illegally' protecting their system by locking users out. Therefore, developers should not actually require separate development kits and should just be able to develop applications as they wish on retail versions of Nintendo's consoles.

And on a final note, this truly was a HUGE court case, up in the main court of Paris France and seems likely to be relevant to the whole of Europe.

Full court documents will be available soon, but we

[CharmedonWB]

if this holds up, then logic suggests that sony and microsoft can be sued for similar reasons

[crypysmoker]

Wow...
So.. Since when has Windows been open source?? That $250 price tag kinda draws away from that info

[WoIverine]

If this holds, which it probably won't, what those analysts are saying about the end of consoles is probably true.

[masterchan777]

Developers , coughpiratescough :1 - Nintendo : 0

[MadonnaProject]

WOW, and I mean simply WOW. I am absolutely stunned. Nintendo probably never expected this result in a billion trillion years, and considering their BULLYISH attitudes trying to shut down carts in japan recently, they probably got a bit too big headed and decided to take divneo guys to court. I must say this probably blew up in nintendo's face. It would be fantastic to see how they react to this. I think these idiots, and that includes nintendo, sony, microsoft will think twice before taking everyone to court all the time.

[WoIverine]

WOW, and I mean simply WOW. I am absolutely stunned. Nintendo probably never expected this result in a billion trillion years, and considering their BULLYISH attitudes trying to shut down carts in japan recently, they probably got a bit too big headed and decided to take divneo guys to court. I must say this probably blew up in nintendo's face. It would be fantastic to see how they react to this. I think these idiots, and that includes nintendo, sony, microsoft will think twice before taking everyone to court all the time.

Right on man, right on! A tidal wave of suits are probably about to follow for each of the 3 console manufacturers. They may even be ruled to fully unlock their systems! Can you imagine that.....................

My mouth just started watering...

[JSR]

Well, i think they will ask for another trial which is their right in France. But if they lose at the second trial, they are done !
We will see then...

[legendofphil]

Wow...
So.. Since when has Windows been open source?? That $250 price tag kinda draws away from that info

Last time I checked an Operating System doesn't need to be open source for people to write applications for it.

[kmoed]

in France rules will have little to no effect outside of France and certainly none within Europe, the UK and North America.

You have to be a compete moron to think this minor decision will have any lasting implications or any effect at all. ANYONE CAN develop a game for the Nintendo DS ALREADY. There is nothing to stop you from doing so other then your talents and time, and in Nintendo's appeal they will surely be bringing this to the obviously confused Judge's understanding.

[ThreeDog]

Congratulations Divineo, This is obviously another landmark in a string of worldwide cases.
If only a legal team like that could of saved liksang all those years ago.

It seems funny nintendo isn't allowed to protect their system how they see fit..
Maybe they managed to convince the court that Windows = Moonshell.

I would love to see these court documents since i have one nagging question,
Did the court examine how these devices fool the NDS into booting them?

[Strebor_]

LOL.....And...................Ha Ha Nintendo :D:D:D

[tech3475]

I hope this stands up because this means that Homebrew will become legal effectively and they have to unlock their systems.

Imagine, no more need for hacking.

[Patango]

It will be overturned in a matter of months, the Judge is obviously senile. His verdict is entirely at odds with EU law.

The only other course of action would be to remove all consoles and software from sale in the EU.. not going to happen.

[WoIverine]

There is nothing to stop you from doing so other then your talents and time, and in Nintendo's appeal they will surely be bringing this to the obviously confused Judge's understanding.

Oh yeah? You must've forgotten about "Bob's Game".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob%27s_Game

This ruling is a huge deal.

[kmoed]

Oh yeah? You must've forgotten about "Bob's Game".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob%27s_Game

This ruling is a huge deal.

It's a drop in the bucket and will have no bearing at all nor will it change anything, when Nintendo wins the appeal it will be the end of it,the rest of the world care's less about this ruling and it goes against existing EU laws.

Just because you write a song does not entitle you to a record deal, Just because you make a game it does not entitle you to have it published, If it's good, someone will pick it up, if not, then should you sit and whine and protest to draw attention to yourself, or make your product better?

[faceless]

this won't last. if it did, they'd just stop selling videogames in france.

[grapeape]

Right on man, right on! A tidal wave of suits are probably about to follow for each of the 3 console manufacturers. They may even be ruled to fully unlock their systems! Can you imagine that.....................

My mouth just started watering...

Yea thats a way to show em...of course it would likely kill the console business since no manufacturer in their right mind would want to produce a product where they are literally forced by law to support piracy (sorry but though we would like to think otherwise...where there is an open system piracy follows), but hey what a victory!!! :rolleyes: Seriously, name one successful "open" console of handheld...I'd really like to see all these "homebrew" supporters and developers truly put their money where their mouth is...buy pandora and prove it can be successful since every previous attempt has been a dismal failure.

The most likely scenario if the verdict is upheld is that France suddenly goes consoleless as manufacturers pull out.

[cubehacker]

Good news shame its diveno they sux oh yes and I know they own maxconsole.

[KingPepper]

Its obvious, the judge is a Arrr Jim Lad (Pirate) himself, that's why he said Nintendo are Illegally protecting there consoles.......:D

[stanleyopar2000]

YEAA!!

PIR- erm...I meant...HOMEBREW FOR THE WIN!

this is really good...

but I wonder if nintendo will just give up on the EU. and go for the USA!..GASP...they WOULD WIN. cause money talks and bullshlt walks

[Kr155]

There would also be no reason for software developers to pay hardware manufacturers lisencing fees. No hardware manufacturer would sell console at a loss when they cant make any money on lisencing. I'm gonna get ripped up for this I'm sure but I don't completely understand the home brew argument for this. Lots of people are celebrating the idea of making the wii, ds, ps3, or 360 open like windows. Talking about the end of subsidized equipment in favor of an open gaming platform. But why do we need the console to be like windows WHEN WE ALREADY HAVE WINDOWS! Seriously if you want an open software platform, we have windows, mac, and every flavor of linux one could dream of. Googles even jumping in next year. You can put anything you damn well please on any of them. Your not gonna get sued as a developer, and your not gonna get banned as a gamer. You can get drivers for any controller or joystick you want. hdmi, hd, laptops, netbooks, smartphones, htpc. Aside from stealing (or backing up) ds games. Why would anyone really care about this

[grapeape]

There would also be no reason for software developers to pay hardware manufacturers lisencing fees. No hardware manufacturer would sell console at a loss when they cant make any money on lisencing. I'm gonna get ripped up for this I'm sure but I don't completely understand the home brew argument for this. Lots of people are celebrating the idea of making the wii, ds, ps3, or 360 open like windows. Talking about the end of subsidized equipment in favor of an open gaming platform. But why do we need the console to be like windows WHEN WE ALREADY HAVE WINDOWS! Seriously if you want an open software platform, we have windows, mac, and every flavor of linux one could dream of. Googles even jumping in next year. You can put anything you damn well please on any of them. Your not gonna get sued as a developer, and your not gonna get banned as a gamer. You can get drivers for any controller or joystick you want. hdmi, hd, laptops, netbooks, smartphones, htpc. Aside from stealing (or backing up) ds games. Why would anyone really care about this

Not to mention that MS has already provided XNA and Sony until recently provided the "other os" option. The support for this is really more the usual pirates trying to hide behind "homebrew" as their reason. If homebrew on a gadget was truly as "big" as some people here claim the gp32 would have sold by the millions. I dont see droves of people buying or talking up Uzebox, fusebox or evo. Gamix died due to lack of support, pandora is having trouble even getting off the ground. What do they all have in common? They all do exactly what "everyone" supposedly wants.

[put4558350]

Well, If Nintendo not too dump.

- refer to sony, microsoft, apple for being close

- change subject to DS flash cart and it's capable to play pirate game. reference to it's firmware update's log (fix bug in that game...) and demand money

- ask to make it's next firmware/next unit's shipment unable to play pirate game (but can play some homebrows) as a safe bet

- Then start talking about DMCA, esrb rating, other license fee that other company pay. and demand more money.

[picopir8]

I like homebrew because it allows a handful of hobbyists to add new functionality the the manufacturer does not deem valuable enough to spend their time developing.
Good examples include XBMC or Mplayer for the Wii. Not to mention all the other media apps, tools, and games available as wii homebrew. Also it allows you to run emulators on your newer devices. Yes downloading ROMS can still be illegal, however, many games from older consoles are now public domain so you can do whatever you please with them. Also, if you already own the game then in most countries using the ROM in an emulator is legal. Console manufactures want to lock out homebrew because then all content has to go through them and they can sell these old games that people want on wii shop, live arcade, and sony store where as they would get nothing if someone wrote a homebrew emulator.

I do not think this is going to be the death of the console. I suspect if this is upheld, console manufactures will allow users to download an app to their consoles that allows homebrew development in a restricted mode (either a reduced performance VM or something similar to what the PS3 offers to allow linux installs). This would allow people to develop run homebrew while prohibiting that app from being able to play pirated titles. Then they will probably allow people to publish their apps on each consoles online store. Once approved by the store, users would then be able to download the apps and run them in native mode. The console manufactures would make out pretty good considering they would take a portion of the sale.

[Kr155]

The reason they want control is because they spend billions on r&d and sell consoles at a loss because they CAN make money on software lisceansing and ame sales. If the platform were open to all software noone would need to pay liscensing and the platform owners would not make any money. They would have no reason to sell the platform anymore and they would simply stop. At tha point the only aming platform would be the computer. Which already exists and does all those neat thins mentioned above. any simple consumer friendly option for gaming will pretty much be extinct.

[ASSPOP]

The reason they want control is because they spend billions on r&d and sell consoles at a loss because they CAN make money on software lisceansing and ame sales. If the platform were open to all software noone would need to pay liscensing and the platform owners would not make any money. They would have no reason to sell the platform anymore and they would simply stop. At tha point the only aming platform would be the computer. Which already exists and does all those neat thins mentioned above. any simple consumer friendly option for gaming will pretty much be extinct.

good, **** consumer friendly options.

[tech3475]

Nintendo make a profit on every unit sold IIRC.

[kama]

Full court documents will be available soon, but we

But we what?

[BranFlakes]

Wow...
So.. Since when has Windows been open source?? That $250 price tag kinda draws away from that info

I dont think you understand this situation. The ruling was about development, not being open source. Windows allows anyone to make any program, unlike the DS. That was what the comparison was between.

[p1nky]

lol and here they come out of their holes again, the paid trolls of the industy.

it's just like I said, allowing only signed software to run on a system is effectively a violation of free speech. it simply cannot be up to corporations to decide what may get published and what not.

sure they use it for copy protection too, however if you look at what apple is doing with it's app store this has barely anything to do with copy protection, it has to do with apple deciding what may get published and what not.

also some years ago nintendo had a policy of not "licensing" violent games. who the fuq is nintendo to tell anyone what kind of game to play, they don't have any legal authority whatsoever to decide what contents people may and may not see, use, watch play.

congratulations to the judge, apparently one of the few left that has not been bribed or bullied into being the industries little puppy.

[grapeape]

lol and here they come out of their holes again, the paid trolls of the industy.

it's just like I said, allowing only signed software to run on a system is effectively a violation of free speech. it simply cannot be up to corporations to decide what may get published and what not.

sure they use it for copy protection too, however if you look at what apple is doing with it's app store this has barely anything to do with copy protection, it has to do with apple deciding what may get published and what not.

also some years ago nintendo had a policy of not "licensing" violent games. who the **** is nentindeo to tell anyone what kind of game to play, they don't have any legal authority whatsoever to decide what contents people may and may not see, use, watch play.

congratulations to the judge, apparently one of the view left that has not been bribed or bullied into being the industries little puppy.

Are you really this clueless? Licensing is how most console manufacturers make their money...if there system is open and no licensing is involved where is their incentive to make a console in the first place? What you will get is either no console or things like the PS3 released at a price above their manufacturing cost (which was around $800 for the PS3 when launched) neither of which is good for the consumer, not even the homebrew community would want that.

Please explain how its a violation of "freedom of speech"? It has absolutely nothing to do with protected speech it has to do with a consumer device for which you agree to a terms of service.

With your sorely lacking analogy of the App Store you missed one real problem...anyone can get a dev kit, Apple does not stop you from creating whatever the hell you want for the iphone, however hosting your crap is at their discretion and approval....which again you agree to in the terms of signing up for itunes.

Nintendo's seal of approval was an attempt to keep the console family friendly and though heavy handed at times...it was their right to do so. Just as its walmarts right to sell censored cd's, if you dont like it dont fucking buy it. Consoles and handhelds are not open and public systems and were not designed to be, they are closed and private systems which you get the rights to use within the limits they set....again...dont like...dont buy it, why is that so hard to understand?

You like to spout off everytime an issue like this comes up but geez go back to school learn a little bit and then come back your nonsense just makes you sound like a uneducated rabid pirate.

So anyway if common sense makes me a "paid troll for the industry" where's my fucking check seems all I do is shell out money for games and consoles. :rolleyes:

[dwrecording]

Right on man, right on! A tidal wave of suits are probably about to follow for each of the 3 console manufacturers. They may even be ruled to fully unlock their systems! Can you imagine that.....................

My mouth just started watering...

You all that think like this are just dumb. You do see that if that was the case you would not have any good game at all to play. Why would someone spend 2mil on a game just to have you DL it free? This would be the true end to consoles. I am so sick of all this FK MS SONY AND WALMART! with out them none of us would even have jobs. They employ 20-30% of the people. They are not evil you have to spend money to make money. They spend more in 10min then you will make in your hole life. Then give 50mil to schools. But they are the evil ones. NO! you people stealing all your software and games and music are the ones that need to see YOU are the reason CDs are 16$ no 5$ Why coke is now 2$ not 1$. Games are 60$ not 40$. Its because so many people steal from them and they have to make up the cost some how! Do you think its cheap to fork out 100,000 pay checks every week? This is the worst news yet for consoles. If you want home brew get Linux and have fun.

[msanchez]

I can't say I feel too bad about this happening to nintendo, they are really not on my good list as of late. I particularly dislike how they are making this issue into a very political one across the whole world... seems every other day they are crying to a different countries government; and the kicker is that nintendo is the only console manufacturer to not sell consoles at a loss, so in my view they have even less rights than sony/ms to complain about this (though I understand that they have equal rights, but that's how I feel).

Still, anybody who thinks that having open consoles is what we want is sorely mistaken.... mainly because there will not be such a thing. The day when you can legally download a copy of a game and play it, truly is the day that consoles will die, or do any of you really expect a dev & publisher to invest millions of dollars out of the kindness of their hearts??? "Oh yeah, our game cost over 10 million to make, but it's ok if you wanna download it and not give us any money... afterall we are all stinking rich since birth and we are making games just as a hobby; in fact I would feel a bit guilty about taking gamers money" WAKE UP! not gonna happen.

To me the whole spirit of homebrew and "the scene" revolves around the community helping each other, not making money off of each other, so the moment something charges money I don't consider it homebrew anymore. As such I'm not a fan of flashcarts, since they are making money off of them, as opposed to let's say a guy that's willing to burn you a set of DVDs of the MAME romset provided you send him money for the DVDs or the DVDs themselves and money to send them back to you (this is pirating as well I know). This people are making money by stealing from others work, and I'm just not for that because I know I would be supremely pissed if I, as well as any of you, was in the dev's shoes; I'm pretty sure any of you would also be pissed.

If you tell me someone that made a program that is freely available for everyone to download and it's use doesn't hurt anybody than I would be 100% behind that decision, but that's not the case here.

Just out of curiosity, do flashcart makers have freely available blueprints on how to build these flashcarts? I'm assuming they don't, so why should nintendo open up their hardware to them if they aren't open themselves?

I still find it funny that this happened to nintendo, but in this particular case I don't think it was the right decision.

[QrafTee]

if this holds up, then logic suggests that sony and microsoft can be sued for similar reasonsWell the difference is that DS flash cartridges do not modify hardware so Nintendo has no bearing on locking them out. The other consoles cannot play fake games all willy-nilly because it requires hardware modifications.

[sirxlaughs]

I can't say I feel too bad about this happening to nintendo, they are really not on my good list as of late. I particularly dislike how they are making this issue into a very political one across the whole world... seems every other day they are crying to a different countries government; and the kicker is that nintendo is the only console manufacturer to not sell consoles at a loss, so in my view they have even less rights than sony/ms to complain about this (though I understand that they have equal rights, but that's how I feel).

Unlike Sony and MS, Nintendo is still the only console maker whose revenue comes strictly from games. Nintendo have always been very vocal and active against piracy. This is nothing new. Even they probably know they won't win every case they bring up. Should they just roll over and let it become a rampant issue? Piracy, like anything else, can be good and bad, but it needs to be kept in check.

[NeoNight]

y'arr that judge pirate came in handy anyway y'aaar!

[CharmedonWB]

It will be overturned in a matter of months, the Judge is obviously senile. His verdict is entirely at odds with EU law.

The only other course of action would be to remove all consoles and software from sale in the EU.. not going to happen.

It does not matter whether this gets overturned or not, the judge has now initiated a precedent and that is quite important.

[CharmedonWB]

Unlike Sony and MS, Nintendo is still the only console maker whose revenue comes strictly from games. Nintendo have always been very vocal and active against piracy. This is nothing new. Even they probably know they won't win every case they bring up. Should they just roll over and let it become a rampant issue? Piracy, like anything else, can be good and bad, but it needs to be kept in check.
Nintendo's revenue does not come strictly from games. They make money on every console sold. Unless by games you meant that they are solely a gaming company, which would also be false. Alternate revenue streams come from licensing their characters for television, i.e. pokemon, kirby, etc., toys, trading cards and magazines.

[CharmedonWB]

Are you really this clueless? Licensing is how most console manufacturers make their money...if there system is open and no licensing is involved where is their incentive to make a console in the first place? What you will get is either no console or things like the PS3 released at a price above their manufacturing cost (which was around $800 for the PS3 when launched) neither of which is good for the consumer, not even the homebrew community would want that.

Please explain how its a violation of "freedom of speech"? It has absolutely nothing to do with protected speech it has to do with a consumer device for which you agree to a terms of service.

With your sorely lacking analogy of the App Store you missed one real problem...anyone can get a dev kit, Apple does not stop you from creating whatever the hell you want for the iphone, however hosting your crap is at their discretion and approval....which again you agree to in the terms of signing up for itunes.

Nintendo's seal of approval was an attempt to keep the console family friendly and though heavy handed at times...it was their right to do so. Just as its walmarts right to sell censored cd's, if you dont like it dont fucking buy it. Consoles and handhelds are not open and public systems and were not designed to be, they are closed and private systems which you get the rights to use within the limits they set....again...dont like...dont buy it, why is that so hard to understand?

You like to spout off everytime an issue like this comes up but geez go back to school learn a little bit and then come back your nonsense just makes you sound like a uneducated rabid pirate.

So anyway if common sense makes me a "paid troll for the industry" where's my fucking check seems all I do is shell out money for games and consoles. :rolleyes:

You know, we can sit here and talk sh*t about how piracy is killing the industry, but the truth is, ever since piracy has taken a foothold in the industry, it has done nothing but grow. NES, no real piracy, 60M sold. SNES, no real piracy, 49M sold. PS1, piracy established, 100+M sold. PS2 even more piracy, 140+M sold and still going. The point I am making is that the PS1 and the PS2 were more pirated than any other console in history up to that point, including the Xbox, GC, N64, and yet they still are the highest selling consoles ever, both pushing beyond 100M sold. In the days of no piracy, the master system and NES combined still do not equal the amount of PS1's sold. The industry barely supported two consoles in those days and today it easily supports three consoles and two handhelds. Obviously the industry has grown and does better now during the days of piracy than it did when there was no piracy. The Wii will break the NES's sales records and it is a heavily pirated console, not to mention the Wii has more million unit (game) sellers than any other Nintendo console.

[grapeape]

You know, we can sit here and talk sh*t about how piracy is killing the industry, but the truth is, ever since piracy has taken a foothold in the industry, it has done nothing but grow. NES, no real piracy, 60M sold. SNES, no real piracy, 49M sold. PS1, piracy established, 100+M sold. PS2 even more piracy, 140+M sold and still going. The point I am making is that the PS1 and the PS2 were more pirated than any other console in history up to that point, including the Xbox, GC, N64, and yet they still are the highest selling consoles ever, both pushing beyond 100M sold. In the days of no piracy, the master system and NES combined still do not equal the amount of PS1's sold. The industry barely supported two consoles in those days and today it easily supports three consoles and two handhelds. Obviously the industry has grown and does better now during the days of piracy than it did when there was no piracy. The Wii will break the NES's sales records and it is a heavily pirated console, not to mention the Wii has more million unit (game) sellers than any other Nintendo console.

Did you actually read my post before responding? The only reference to piracy was that his argument sounded like one from a kid with a pro-piracy agenda. Piracy is just a side effect...I was simply pointing out why if consoles were required to be open there would be no new consoles due to there being no financial incentive to do so...its not even arguable, with no control over there systems and no licensing there is no revenue stream.

[sirxlaughs]

Nintendo's revenue does not come strictly from games. They make money on every console sold. Unless by games you meant that they are solely a gaming company, which would also be false. Alternate revenue streams come from licensing their characters for television, i.e. pokemon, kirby, etc., toys, trading cards and magazines.

Pokemon, kirby, etc. You're right. Those aren't gaming franchises at all. That's like saying an athlete doesn't make his money off playing sports b/c he sold his face to Gatorade. Sony makes money from just about everything electronic. Microsoft, besides Windows, has it's hand in various software projects. If Nintendo starts selling TV's and spreadsheet programs, I'll agree that they generate revenue outside of gaming.

[sbanting]

I'm slightly confused, maybe I read it wrong, but I read it as, the judge is saying nintendo need to allow normal people to create apps/games for a console if they want, for example, like apples app store on the iphone, ms's indie thing, and now even sony's psp has some sort of app tool i believe. Isn't that what the judge is about, not open up the console and have no protection on any games or on the firmware etc?

[WoIverine]

Heh, guess the french really aren't so bad after all. This court decision is becoming heated and is starting to show up in mainstream media. Here's a link to Engadget.com about it, even mentions Maxconsole! :D

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/04/nintendo-loses-ds-flash-cart-case-in-french-court/

[WoIverine]

You all that think like this are just dumb. You do see that if that was the case you would not have any good game at all to play. Why would someone spend 2mil on a game just to have you DL it free? This would be the true end to consoles. I am so sick of all this FK MS SONY AND WALMART! with out them none of us would even have jobs. They employ 20-30% of the people. They are not evil you have to spend money to make money. They spend more in 10min then you will make in your hole life. Then give 50mil to schools. But they are the evil ones. NO! you people stealing all your software and games and music are the ones that need to see YOU are the reason CDs are 16$ no 5$ Why coke is now 2$ not 1$. Games are 60$ not 40$. Its because so many people steal from them and they have to make up the cost some how! Do you think its cheap to fork out 100,000 pay checks every week? This is the worst news yet for consoles. If you want home brew get Linux and have fun.

Dude, I really could give two craps less about the games, that's what my gamefly subscription is for so I don't have to spend 60$ a pop. I don't even have time to play 99% of the games out there anyways. I just want a $200 3 core, 3ghz pc with decent graphic output as my media center pc, i.e. 360. What keeps my girl happy is when she can watch any tv show, any time, whenever she wants, via hulu online, but not in front of a pc monitor. When she's happy, I'm happy...if you get my drift. Sex > games. If I can run emulators from it, or xbmc, even better.

[msanchez]

Pokemon, kirby, etc. You're right. Those aren't gaming franchises at all. That's like saying an athlete doesn't make his money off playing sports b/c he sold his face to Gatorade. Sony makes money from just about everything electronic. Microsoft, besides Windows, has it's hand in various software projects. If Nintendo starts selling TV's and spreadsheet programs, I'll agree that they generate revenue outside of gaming.

sony and ms do make money from all these other enterprises, but ninty are quite the behemoth in their own right. Having all those other ventures also means extra expenses that they incur, which Nintendo doesn't, and thanks to their business plan despite having sold fewer consoles in the past 2 generations they probably made quite a large sum of money.

I wasn't even thinking about the pokemon and kirby thing, but thinking about it just try to imagine the type of revenue ninty has seen from pokemon. I personally don't see nintendo as the small cute company some see, they are just as bad... actually probably worst than sony or ms will ever be.

P.S. oops that NOT wasn't supposed to be there.

[sirxlaughs]

sony and ms do make money from all these other enterprises, but ninty are not quite the behemoth in their own right. Having all those other ventures also means extra expenses that they incur, which Nintendo doesn't, and thanks to their business plan despite having sold fewer consoles in the past 2 generations they probably made quite a large sum of money.

I wasn't even thinking about the pokemon and kirby thing, but thinking about it just try to imagine the type of revenue ninty has seen from pokemon. I personally don't see nintendo as the small cute company some see, they are just as bad... actually probably worst than sony or ms will ever be.

If those other ventures were just expenses, they wouldn't be the global powerhouses they are. Sony even made the audio processor that was in the Super Nintendo. Nintendo's eggs are, essentially, all in one basket. Sega was the same. They had toys, cartoons, etc and look at what happened. Sega even had it's arcade division to fall back on. After the N64 and Gamecube failed, there were reports that Nintendo was able to stay in business b/c of the portable market. I don't see them as a cute company. I see them as the old player in a volatile market. As a gamer, I've never felt harmed by their practices (except maybe the Virtual Boy) until this generation. Lately, they've been doing some things that have made me see them in a less-than-stellar light.

[msanchez]

If those other ventures were just expenses, they wouldn't be the global powerhouses they are. Sony even made the audio processor that was in the Super Nintendo. Nintendo's eggs are, essentially, all in one basket. Sega was the same. They had toys, cartoons, etc and look at what happened. Sega even had it's arcade division to fall back on. After the N64 and Gamecube failed, there were reports that Nintendo was able to stay in business b/c of the portable market. I don't see them as a cute company. I see them as the old player in a volatile market. As a gamer, I've never felt harmed by their practices (except maybe the Virtual Boy) until this generation. Lately, they've been doing some things that have made me see them in a less-than-stellar light.

Let's not even try to compare Sega's whoring of their trademarks to Nintendo's... or are you going to tell me that at least one time while you were taking a dump pikachu didn't just pop out of the toilet going "PIKA PIIIIII, PIKA PIKA PIKA"??? if you answer no, then you my dear sir must be an alien from another dimension... that's right you can't even be from this same plane of existence is you managed to find a safe haven from the merciless onslaught of pokecrap all around us a few years back.

I do understand that ninty's business is centered around games, but they know how to make money off of their successful series in more ways than by only making games, and in cases like Mario and Pokemon it's very apparent how good they are. This doesn't bother me though, my gripe with them is getting politicians involved in the piracy fiasco, and that they are the only ones that make money on each console they sell. As crappy, underhanded, dishonest and just plain horrible horrible people ms and sony can be, I feel a certain bit of respect for them venturing to sell their consoles at a loss. It just seems like they have more confidence in their machines; yes I know that's irrelevant, but as I said I just don't like nintendo's way of doing things, so I don't feel sorry if things blow up in their face every now and then. That is not to say that I wish for nintendo to go the same route as sega did.

[sirxlaughs]

Let's not even try to compare Sega's whoring of their trademarks to Nintendo's... or are you going to tell me that at least one time while you were taking a dump pikachu didn't just pop out of the toilet going "PIKA PIIIIII, PIKA PIKA PIKA"??? if you answer no, then you my dear sir must be an alien from another dimension... that's right you can't even be from this same plane of existence is you managed to find a safe haven from the merciless onslaught of pokecrap all around us a few years back.

I do understand that ninty's business is centered around games, but they know how to make money off of their successful series in more ways than by only making games, and in cases like Mario and Pokemon it's very apparent how good they are. This doesn't bother me though, my gripe with them is getting politicians involved in the piracy fiasco, and that they are the only ones that make money on each console they sell. As crappy, underhanded, dishonest and just plain horrible horrible people ms and sony can be, I feel a certain bit of respect for them venturing to sell their consoles at a loss. It just seems like they have more confidence in their machines; yes I know that's irrelevant, but as I said I just don't like nintendo's way of doing things, so I don't feel sorry if things blow up in their face every now and then. That is not to say that I wish for nintendo to go the same route as sega did.

Why can't we compare? Because Nintendo's franchises were more successful? Isn't that every company's dream? Sega tried it. Sony tried it. Microsoft tried it. Nintendo did what the other three didn't. They went after the kids. While the others were poking fun at Nintendo's "kiddie appeal", Nintendo were raking up the dollars. I wasn't a fan of Pokemon, but my younger brother was. He was plenty happy at the onslaught of pokecrap. Kids go through fads through all generations. At that particular time, Pokemon was the "in thing." Before that was probably Power Rangers. Kids are fickle, and parents have to put up with it. They're also good for business. I'm not going to fault a company for knowing how to make a buck.

Nintendo aren't just good at making money off their franchises. To be able to market a franchise like Mario and Pokemon, something has to make them popular first. Why didn't Sony's Crash Bandicoot campaign work? The guy in the suit was everywhere. Games, commercials, toys, public appearances, etc. Microsoft landed a good hit with Halo and Master Chief. Why not hate on them for milking that franchise? Games, toys, novels, etc. The only thing missing was the movie that got canned. You find it respectful that Sony and Microsoft sell their product at a loss. I understand that view since we, as consumers, benefit by getting more for our money. At the same, though, it's a dirty business tactic. It's the same thing that the Wal-Mart's of the world do to their competition. You undercut the little guy because you can afford to and they can't. As for respect. One of the things that has made me respect Nintendo over the years, is their ability to compete successfully while the competition attempts to undercut them. The PS2 was sold at a loss, while the Cube was the superior machine. I'm not sure if the PS1 was sold at a loss, but it was designed by Nintendo. Go figure. It seems like you're saying that you don't like it that Nintendo are going after piracy b/c they're more successful than their competition. Does success mean you should roll over and take it? I don't understand. They're not going after the kid in his basement downloading torrents. They never have. They've mostly targeted large, organized piracy rings (Doctor V64, Game Doctor for SNES, etc). The flash carts they are going after were, at one point, being sold at retailers in some countries. If someone doesn't play the bad guy, things can out of control. I'm sure they know they won't win all their cases, but balance has to be maintained. I'm hoping that with the ginormous (can you believe that's been a dictionary word since 1948?) success of the Wii, they will be able to bring out something redonkulous (not a real word yet) next.

[msanchez]

As I said I don't like flashcarts, never have, never will because they are doubly wrong... they take consumers' money and ,in theory, deprive others of money they have earned. I am not "hating" on nintendo for having successful franchises and knowing how to do their business... in fact many times I've said that if I was to start a console business, hypothetically speaking, I would like it to more closely resemble nintendo, but that doesn't mean I have to like them as a consumer. Yes I think it's pathetic to see a grown man acting like a little b*tch; crying his eyes out in front of others so they help him deal with his problems, is that so wrong? no matter how you spin it I just don't like the way they are going about things, it's strictly a personal thing, but you seem to be confusing that with me being against their goal, or worst still, supporting flashcart manufacturers.

Is it such a rare thing for one's personal feelings to be at odds with the way things are/should be? anyways here's a breakdown of my OPINION on this matter:

-Nintendo is full of douche bags
-Flashcart manufacturers are parasites
-I seriously question the sanity of the judge
-It's funny as heck that this happened to nintendo
-This could be a very bad precedent for future cases

As I said I don't want nintendo to fail and go under, but nobody is indispensable. Should anything happen to nintendo, given time somebody will replace them; might be even better because as great as sega was, I like it's replacements in the video game industry better... well I did hate sega with a fierce passion... I was 6 - 14 years old though.

P.S. precisely because nintendo's franchises were super successful we shouldn't even compare them to sega's dismal attempt at whoring their franchises. Nintendo made/makes bucketloads of cash from these, sega... let's just say not so much. The argument was that nintendo makes money out of "whoring their franchises" while sega didn't.

[Charbless]

France (EU) law/courts have always been a joke don't take this serious at all Nintendo if they are smart will choose another place to take the legal action if it was done in America Nintendo would win no problem.

The whole piracy things is a joke look at games sales figures they are high still even with prices rising most people that pirate stuff had no intention to buy it in the first place at full price so no profit money has been lost which is what it's all about is profit. Piracy at times can massively boost sales look at the 360 ms was foolish banning people because they would be making money of dlc and live subs which is far more then they make of console sales.

[sirxlaughs]

As I said I don't like flashcarts, never have, never will because they are doubly wrong... they take consumers' money and ,in theory, deprive others of money they have earned. I am not "hating" on nintendo for having successful franchises and knowing how to do their business... in fact many times I've said that if I was to start a console business, hypothetically speaking, I would like it to more closely resemble nintendo, but that doesn't mean I have to like them as a consumer. Yes I think it's pathetic to see a grown man acting like a little b*tch; crying his eyes out in front of others so they help him deal with his problems, is that so wrong? no matter how you spin it I just don't like the way they are going about things, it's strictly a personal thing, but you seem to be confusing that with me being against their goal, or worst still, supporting flashcart manufacturers.

Is it such a rare thing for one's personal feelings to be at odds with the way things are/should be? anyways here's a breakdown of my OPINION on this matter:

-Nintendo is full of douche bags
-Flashcart manufacturers are parasites
-I seriously question the sanity of the judge
-It's funny as heck that this happened to nintendo
-This could be a very bad precedent for future cases

As I said I don't want nintendo to fail and go under, but nobody is indispensable. Should anything happen to nintendo, given time somebody will replace them; might be even better because as great as sega was, I like it's replacements in the video game industry better... well I did hate sega with a fierce passion... I was 6 - 14 years old though.

P.S. precisely because nintendo's franchises were super successful we shouldn't even compare them to sega's dismal attempt at whoring their franchises. Nintendo made/makes bucketloads of cash from these, sega... let's just say not so much. The argument was that nintendo makes money out of "whoring their franchises" while sega didn't.

I didn't mean to imply you were a supporter of piracy devices. It just seemed like you were hating on Nintendo for being successful. You said you didn't like how they were turning their war on piracy into a political one, which is not new. They've been doing this since the NES. Then you said they have less of a right to complain than MS or Sony b/c of their success. It seemed like you were saying that Nintendo's success means that they are no longer as entitled to fight against threats to that success.

The reason why I think Nintendo's franchises can be compared to Sega's, Sony's, and Microsoft's is because they all tried. Failure doesn't make you less of a whore. I always thought Sega was very successful. Sonic was all over for Mario until around the Saturn. It wasn't a dismal attempt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh0V68c1ybw&feature=related

[msanchez]

I didn't mean to imply you were a supporter of piracy devices. It just seemed like you were hating on Nintendo for being successful. You said you didn't like how they were turning their war on piracy into a political one, which is not new. They've been doing this since the NES. Then you said they have less of a right to complain than MS or Sony b/c of their success. It seemed like you were saying that Nintendo's success means that they are no longer as entitled to fight against threats to that success.

The reason why I think Nintendo's franchises can be compared to Sega's, Sony's, and Microsoft's is because they all tried. Failure doesn't make you less of a whore. I always thought Sega was very successful. Sonic was all over for Mario until around the Saturn. It wasn't a dismal attempt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh0V68c1ybw&feature=related

Nintendo has been at this since the NES days? That's a tidbit I didn't know... I guess those were happier times for me, well actually I would have had no way of finding out during those days.

As far as whoring goes I agree, but my point was that sega did not make as much money, while nintendo did, so as game oriented as nintendo might be they are not exactly a one trick pony. Nowhere near as varied as ms or sony true, but most definitely more than sega... or maybe that is more successful than sega.

P.S. why do I find that commercial slightly disturbing.

[CharmedonWB]

Did you actually read my post before responding? The only reference to piracy was that his argument sounded like one from a kid with a pro-piracy agenda. Piracy is just a side effect...I was simply pointing out why if consoles were required to be open there would be no new consoles due to there being no financial incentive to do so...its not even arguable, with no control over there systems and no licensing there is no revenue stream.

I did read your post and although I quoted your post, it was not meant as any direct response to yours. I only quoted yours because your post inspired me to write mine. I apologize if you feel as though I was criticizing you or your post. That was not my intention.

[Mchief298]

I hope this stands up because this means that Homebrew will become legal effectively and they have to unlock their systems.

Imagine, no more need for hacking.

I wouldn't mind that. I don't think anyone would.

[grapeape]

I did read your post and although I quoted your post, it was not meant as any direct response to yours. I only quoted yours because your post inspired me to write mine. I apologize if you feel as though I was criticizing you or your post. That was not my intention.

Nah no sweat...hope I didnt sound like I was attacking you either. I do agree that the effects of piracy as it currently stands are exaggerated, and in fact can sometimes actually increase sales more than hurt them, I just worry that if systems were legally forced to be completely open the current business models couldnt support it and that would be very bad thing for both legitimate gamers and pirates.

[Phigmeta]

We have just heard that Nintendo has today lost a major court case against the Divineo group in the main court of Paris. Nintendo originally took the group to court over DS flash carts, however the judge today has ruled against Nintendo and suggested that they are purposely locking out developers from their consoles and things should be more like Windows where ANYONE can develop any application if they wish to.

The ramifications of this are huge, as it indicates that flash carts are actually legal. Moroever, it could have bigger implications for developers and the like because Nintendo is deemed to be 'illegally' protecting their system by locking users out. Therefore, developers should not actually require separate development kits and should just be able to develop applications as they wish on retail versions of Nintendo's consoles.

And on a final note, this truly was a HUGE court case, up in the main court of Paris France and seems likely to be relevant to the whole of Europe.

Full court documents will be available soon, but we


Even is I like the ruling .... You just wait ... one day a video games machine will be developed out of France .... then you will see judges holding up all kinds of silly arguments to favor their system..

the french have and always will be self serving a$$wipes that only think of themselves.

F the french

[Jdemon]

WOW!

Talk about a concept going way off the rails here. This ruling was about the sale of Game Carts....that's it.

While it may raise a few eyebrows it really isn't much of a big deal and will have basically NO impact whatsoever on Homebrew, Piracy, Microsoft, Independent game developers, or any of all the other tangents going in this thread. And while the French judge may have his opinions (whatever bias or more likely ignorance they are based on) they hold NO bearing whatsoever on the legalities of piracy or any companies' right to protect their own invention.

That said I don't mean to discount the "victory" here and it's good to know that once and a while corporate bullies don't get away with it. (assuming the ruling holds)

[crazy brawler]

well the way i see it is that it going to make the wii in some way better

well look at this for exemple: youtube(dot) com / watch?v=SSoey5UEDx4
this would have been impossible without the homebrew channel.
Well brawl hacker want to make the game more better like in the video, play in sse stage, custom texture and later but they own character in it

it may be not possible anymore with those anti piracy system. You guy may thing it should still be a anti piracy but for some game,they can make it even better then how it first start and they may make more money for brawl or maybe not so i think the judge is right but put it a open system

edit: by the way, they done it with the original game too so there is still no backup game with brawl to put those thing

[kmoed]

WOW!

Talk about a concept going way off the rails here. This ruling was about the sale of Game Carts....that's it.

While it may raise a few eyebrows it really isn't much of a big deal and will have basically NO impact whatsoever on Homebrew, Piracy, Microsoft, Independent game developers, or any of all the other tangents going in this thread. And while the French judge may have his opinions (whatever bias or more likely ignorance they are based on) they hold NO bearing whatsoever on the legalities of piracy or any companies' right to protect their own invention.

That said I don't mean to discount the "victory" here and it's good to know that once and a while corporate bullies don't get away with it. (assuming the ruling holds)

Nintendo filed their appeal today.