Article: Kinect set to recognize sign language

[Zeus]

You can view the page at http://www.maxconsole.net/content.php?41622-Kinect-set-to-recognize-sign-language

[Tsujin]

unless you hold that hand right up against the camera i fail to see how Kinect has the resolution to perform this - seems just like a preemptive measure just incase someone "gets ideas" about kinects concept and decides to patent it themselves, thus blocking microsoft from freely doing it.

[iLLNESS]

unless you hold that hand right up against the camera i fail to see how Kinect has the resolution to perform this - seems just like a preemptive measure just incase someone "gets ideas" about kinects concept and decides to patent it themselves, thus blocking microsoft from freely doing it.

the camera zooms...

[braids]

You wouldn't neccessarily need a higher rez camera than what is on the kinect. I would just question the lighting conditions for it to work. If anything, you would have to be a certain range from the unit to compensate for low light situations. But what do I know.

[DEDDOA]

unless you hold that hand right up against the camera i fail to see how Kinect has the resolution to perform this - seems just like a preemptive measure just incase someone "gets ideas" about kinects concept and decides to patent it themselves, thus blocking microsoft from freely doing it.

How do you know this?

If it can pick up hand movements as has been previously claimed, then this is potentially possible. Even with the lag, combined with the video capture on the camera it could easily keep up, and to be fair, is a few ms lag a big deal when used for communication?

Also you don't appear to know much about patents if you think this is the case, the patent has to be used or at least licenced by the the creator. You can't patent somthing then sit on it in a hope to block others or sue them for infringement. You are given a certain ammount of time to get things sorted but you can't sit on it indefinetly.

Patents are designed to protect everyone not just the creator, if the creator infringes the regualtions then they loose their patent, tho by then likley the patent is published and therefore availbale to all to use.

[ThreeDog]

They have ASL covered but what about BSL? Anyway the section people will want to start at for this is [0080]

This is Kinect related but if it can deal with that amount of accuracy i have not seen it yet. The software can be worked on for a good while yet so who knows.

Links
http://www.primesense.com/?p=487 This is the company that makes the hardware side of Kinect
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-primesense-article Promo video showing intended function of gestures
That is fairly good article for understanding the technology behind Kinect too as well as the relationship between Microsoft and PrimeSense.

Kinect may suck for gaming and lack any games id want to play but it'd sure please the hearing impaired to have a decent communications system like that.

[billysastard]

if it could ever be made to work this would be a fantastic communications tool for the deaf (assuming it can recognise bsl etc) although of course it would really need to be working on the pc as the idea of having to pay for an xbl gold account to be able to use it is not good.

[Tsujin]

the camera zooms...
Zooms in on the hand?, have you ever seen someone sign language with their hand perfectly still?
By the time it's zoomed in on the hand to read the position the hand is in, the gesture will be over, and arm possibly moved, thus out of readable area, the camera would need to zoom out, re-aquire the hand and zoom in to that area, after adjusting the axis, at which point the second hand gesture will under normal circumstances, be over too.
Given that kinect has trouble tracking humans as it is (youtube link i've posted a few threads ago), the notion that it will accurately read sign language is proposterous.

The resolution of the cameras used,a nd the removal of the hardware processing inside kinect have crippled the device and limited it to low accuracy games and UI navigation, hoping it'll do more than that is just being over optimisitic.

Was in a macys last week with some friends and tried out their final retail units that they're using to demo, prior to taking the coach back to the airport, and almost all of the stuff you do on kinect adventures was prompted, you get an onscreen message telling you to spin around, and it doesnt progress further until you do, to me this is just put in place to reduce the fail rate by setting itself up to know what your next move will be.
Then we tried bowling, or at least tried to, while we were able to unzip into the main menu within about 30 seconds of hand waving, navigating the menu was a real shitheap, having to hold your hand over one icon long enough to select it, isn't so great when the avatar miming your movements is on the fritz every other second.
Lastly we tried rebound, this one started off well, seemed to track movements fairly well enough the difficulty increased and you had to increase your movement speeds, once your arms and legs start flailing to keep up with the onscreen action, it's almost as if kinect just gives up on trying to track your movements and has itself a seizure.

This was the second time i tried the hardware (first time was at e3), and it doesn't feel like it has improved any, at all, if anything, in the store environment, even though they specifically cleared the area away for people to use kinect, it had more problems then it did at e3.

Not that you're going to want to hear this, but there were plenty of people there that were saying "i'm going to get move instead", despite me saying to them that both sucked, and that i'll be sticking with my normal controllers, but the general consensus was, that Kinect is half-baked, feels like a beta release, not a polished product.

[billysastard]

Not that you're going to want to hear this, but there were plenty of people there that were saying "i'm going to get move instead", despite me saying to them that both sucked, and that i'll be sticking with my normal controllers, but the general consensus was, that Kinect is half-baked, feels like a beta release, not a polished product.

i have to agree with your last paragraph, the only thing that is stopping me getting a mii2 is sony themselves whereas the kinect just doesnt interest me at all now that i've seen it in use as you say it has a kind of beta look to it as if they will make a kinect 2 for their next gen machine.

[iLLNESS]

Zooms in on the hand?, have you ever seen someone sign language with their hand perfectly still?
By the time it's zoomed in on the hand to read the position the hand is in, the gesture will be over, and arm possibly moved, thus out of readable area, the camera would need to zoom out, re-aquire the hand and zoom in to that area, after adjusting the axis, at which point the second hand gesture will under normal circumstances, be over too.
Given that kinect has trouble tracking humans as it is (youtube link i've posted a few threads ago), the notion that it will accurately read sign language is proposterous.

...............................................

Not that you're going to want to hear this, but there were plenty of people there that were saying "i'm going to get move instead", despite me saying to them that both sucked, and that i'll be sticking with my normal controllers, but the general consensus was, that Kinect is half-baked, feels like a beta release, not a polished product.

you're over analyzing the article. it doesnt say kinect is launching with the ability to read sign, or m$ promises it will read sign in the near future... it just says theres a patent on it.
obviously its possible for kinect to do it, otherwise m$ wouldnt be bothering with a patent with it. it would show they have atleast shown to themselves its somewhat possible and theres a benefit to continuing on with the project.

the patent could be for the 'kinect' on a pc. make it so people who are deaf and cant speak and who use sign can still easily chat over the internet (yes they type, but so do normal people but we still use skype sometimes cuz its easy)

[garyopa]

"Kinect" will work much better, once they release the newer 360 system, with six-cores, and upgraded GPU designed to handle the "Kinect" unit!

[Tsujin]

you're over analyzing the article. it doesnt say kinect is launching with the ability to read sign, or m$ promises it will read sign in the near future... it just says theres a patent on it.
obviously its possible for kinect to do it, otherwise m$ wouldnt be bothering with a patent with it. it would show they have atleast shown to themselves its somewhat possible and theres a benefit to continuing on with the project.

the patent could be for the 'kinect' on a pc. make it so people who are deaf and cant speak and who use sign can still easily chat over the internet (yes they type, but so do normal people but we still use skype sometimes cuz its easy)
Kinect's hardware doesn't have the resolution for it, pure and simple.

[danight]

Not that you're going to want to hear this, but there were plenty of people there that were saying "i'm going to get move instead", despite me saying to them that both sucked,

Yeah but you dont rush into every move thread to complain about move. But let there be a kinect thread and its off to the races to call it crap.

There is always 2 people you can count on to post crap in almost every single kinect thread and you can usually find them praising ps3 in the other threads.

[Mr_Haricot]

Yeah but you dont rush into every move thread to complain about move. But let there be a kinect thread and its off to the races to call it crap.

There is always 2 people you can count on to post crap in almost every single kinect thread and you can usually find them praising ps3 in the other threads.

I think i may know who you are talking about :rolleyes:

[haki]

unless you hold that hand right up against the camera i fail to see how Kinect has the resolution to perform this - seems just like a preemptive measure just incase someone "gets ideas" about kinects concept and decides to patent it themselves, thus blocking microsoft from freely doing it.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y100/gamefreak9602/YouMad.jpghaters gonna hate.

[iLLNESS]

Kinect's hardware doesn't have the resolution for it, pure and simple.

proof?

thats your opinion.. unless your a sign language using a webcam expert, i'd have to say your wrong.

you can not want it to do sign language, or find it a stupid idea (offending the deaf), or you can just not like the idea of it in general, but you can't go and say it can't be done because of this.

if kinect can map a skeleton on a body from a distance, why couldn't it map 5 fingers and a palm up close?

go read the patent again. your reading too much of the article (showing the persons opinion and interpretation of the patent and what it could be used for)...

[sengoku]

lovers gotta love.


http://shop.jessar.eu/images/LoveAss.jpg (http://shop.jessar.eu/images/LoveAss.jpg)



so what's your point???

[xTONE]

I swear some of u fools have 100% ruined this forum... Go get a job or a life or something...

[haki]

so what's your point???
my point is you and all you and your butt buddies do is spam the forum with stupid ass posts hatin' on anything and everything about MS or xbox why the hell do you guys post here if you don't like it anyway?

[waldog]

proof?

thats your opinion.. unless your a sign language using a webcam expert, i'd have to say your wrong.

you can not want it to do sign language, or find it a stupid idea (offending the deaf), or you can just not like the idea of it in general, but you can't go and say it can't be done because of this.

if kinect can map a skeleton on a body from a distance, why couldn't it map 5 fingers and a palm up close?

go read the patent again. your reading too much of the article (showing the persons opinion and interpretation of the patent and what it could be used for)...

No, he can't say that. But I can say it can't be done accurately.

Some people use different signs for sign language. And some signing doesn't just use "5 fingers". A lot of signing uses the arms, face and other stuff besides "5 fingers". How do I know? Because my grandmother is deaf and almost everybody on my wifes side of the family are experts in sign language. ;)



I bet if Kinect is made to "detect" signing, it won't do a accurate job. And this isn't even a bash towards kinect, I just know for a fact that it won't be able to register every single sign or even register most fast enough. There's some people who can sign so fast, most can't even register what they say cause they can't take it in fast enough. I know software and cameras are different from the human eye and brain, but I really doubt kinect can register exactly what people are signing. My wife signs different from my mother in law, yet they can still understand each other. So it just shows that people don't always sign the same. So unless they make kinect read different ways of signing, it won't work correctly.

[sengoku]

my point is you and all you and your butt buddies do is spam the forum with stupid ass posts hatin' on anything and everything about MS or xbox why the hell do you guys post here if you don't like it anyway?


WOW your not to smart are you:confused:
who is ranting in the defense of his beloved system?
Tsujin's post contains some legitimate points you may or may not agree, but it has nothing close to your level of your hating and name calling, so your even more guilty of the thing you supposedly hate, then he is:rolleyes:

i tried to explain it nicely (that your post has no point, when it comes form such an apparent fanboy) but you, yes you. you and your ...

epic yawn!!:eek:

[Tsujin]

proof?
The camera resolution is too low for proper detection, if you put your hand less than 1ft away from the camera, the image cannot fixate, it's like putting your hand too close to your face and being unable to focus on it.
And no, zooming in with the cameras doesnt help, because kinect does not have OPTICAL zoom, only digital zoom, and expanding an already low quality video feed does not magically increase the quality of obtained data.

It's a fixed focus depth CMOS, so only things between 5ft and 4 meters from the camera are 'in focus', further than that and the IR field dissapates, closer than that and the fixed lens is too blurry for accurate data, the second camera is just to pull rgb image data, it isn't used for 3d tracking at all.

But hey, if you want to go around believing a shitty 640x480 cmos can track a fuzzy-ass ir field bouncing off of a hand at 5ft, be my guest, you'll see for yourself in 2 months just how buggy and inadequate the technology currently is.

They should have saved this for their next console, put in higher res sensors and added a second emitter, and kept the hardware processing onboard.

[bubbleboy]

Soon it'll be able to make breakfast and clean up afterwards. It'll be able to do anything except allow you to play games without lag.

[haki]

WOW your not to smart are you:confused:
who is ranting in the defense of his beloved system?
Tsujin's post contains some legitimate points you may or may not agree, but it has nothing close to your level of your hating and name calling, so your even more guilty of the thing you supposedly hate, then he is:rolleyes:

i tried to explain it nicely (that your post has no point, when it comes form such an apparent fanboy) but you, yes you. you and your ...

epic yawn!!:eek:
ah yes and this is coming from the kid who sticks ps3 up his ass because nothing with a ***** won't come near him. Like i said kid stop hatin' and oh yes i am a fanboy you didn't know!?? check the siggy

[billysastard]

I swear some of u fools have 100% ruined this forum... Go get a job or a life or something...

you do know that you can just ignore them dont you?

click on their username then select Add to Ignore List (or profile then Add to Ignore List if required)

[Punyetta]

you do know that you can just ignore them dont you?

click on their username then select Add to Ignore List (or profile then Add to Ignore List if required)
Only thing is; ignore list does no work on front page news posts.

[ronaldospet]

Well of course theres gonna be certain problems the same way that handwriting programs arent 100% accurate but until any of you see it in action if they ever do make it an actual feature or some form of app later on you cant say anything to it as a hardware limitation has nothing to do with the way a software goes about identifying things.

theres currently softwares that can use old cctv cams to do a lot more than what they are capable of like totally recognising faces from huge distances as seen a lot of new tech like that so talking about a hardware limitation before you even know how the software behind it works with it is just short sighted and your looking for something to shoot down rather than just realising its just a patent for now and you dont have a clue as of now.

[sengoku]

ah yes and this is coming from the kid who sticks ps3 up his ass because nothing with a ***** won't come near him. Like i said kid stop hatin' and oh yes i am a fanboy you didn't know!?? check the siggy

YAWN!!:eek:

[Tsujin]

you cant say anything to it as a hardware limitation has nothing to do with the way a software goes about identifying things.
Okay, pick up something with text and hold it right against your eyes, can you now read the text?, no.
Go out in to the dead of night with a cheap low powered torch and shine it out in front of you, can you see clearly something in the distance from the light of your torch alone?, no.

Software cannot improve upon the limitations set by hardware, this isn't a TV drama where they take poor quality CCTV footage, zoom in, "run some filters" and have a perfectly clear high resolution face, you know, this is reality.

And here, this is JUST FOR YOU. http://themavesite.com/TMS-Pictures/2009-10/Zoom-CSIInvestigation.jpg

[ronaldospet]

No not from drama's im talking about real tech i have seen shown but dont worry as i dont expect you to take anything you havnt seen as fact so dont really care, but rather than trying to force feed everyone your unfounded 'facts' maybe just hold off until something actualy comes of this patent.

[Tsujin]

No not from drama's im talking about real tech i have seen shown but dont worry as i dont expect you to take anything you havnt seen as fact so dont really care, but rather than trying to force feed everyone your unfounded 'facts' maybe just hold off until something actualy comes of this patent.
I've seen the tech up close, used the tech, seen the tech running tech demos, which is infinately more than most users here, at a certain distance away, the tracking was amost completely non-existant, and closer than a certain distance was also non-existant, in between those points the hand is just a blob of whatever color the developers decided to render your image.

How can actual, physical experience with the hardware be "unfounded facts"?, you'll see for yourself in 2 months if you're silly enough to spend $150 on a beta test.

[ronaldospet]

I don't plan on buying it but i still think that if anything comes of it then im sure in the future the software devs get will be a lot better or obviously microsoft themselves, as im just also thinking about like with the DS a lot of the recognition stuff has gotten beter over time so just wondering if as software gets better if it manages to im certain that identifying more than just a blob like a hand if for example it only focuses on a hand and has a point for the fingers etc, who knows right now as even when its out it doesnt mean theres never gonna be any advancements.

[Tsujin]

for example it only focuses on a hand and has a point for the fingers etc
It has no optical zoom, only software zoom, software zoom just takes the image and expands it - a blob if still a blob, no matter how big you stretch the image.