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A mini version of the Commodore 64 is coming in 2018

Discussion in 'Retro Gaming News' started by GaryOPA, Sep 29, 2017.

By GaryOPA on Sep 29, 2017 at 4:44 PM
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    GaryOPA

    GaryOPA Master Phoenix Admin Staff Member Top-Dog Brass

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    There’s also a full-sized version in the works!
    [​IMG]

    First there was the Atari Flashback and Sega Flashback consoles from ATGames, but it was not until Nintendo set the Mini Craze on fire with their NES Classic Edition, and now today they are busy selling-out the latest SNES Mini, and as such Retro Games has decided its time to cash in on this craze of Retro Mini's, and have announced coming in 2018 will be half-sized Mini C64 with 64 pre-installed games on it.
    So will you be buying the Mini half-sized eggshell with tiny keys on it, or will you wait for the full sized more solid to type on C64 egg cartoon.

    NEWS SOURCE: A mini version of the Commodore 64 is coming in 2018 (via) EnGadget
     

Comments

Discussion in 'Retro Gaming News' started by GaryOPA, Sep 29, 2017.

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      DW360

      DW360 Loyal Member

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      all these high priced mini consoles..... erm hello we can play all of these for free on nearly every device going, hell you can even create your own mini portable multi platform plug and play all singing and dancing for next to nothing.

      i like the way sega did this many times over the years, nintendo copy the idea and now everyones trying to rape money out of it.

      thing is, i hate how nintendo have gone about it, create a hype deliberately keep supply short, then end support creating desperation and greedy collectors raping them blind, then do the same again.

      then go back and re release the nes mini.... fucking greed and total disrespect to its fans/gamers.

      but i guess its the nintendorks own fault for being mindless sheep and allowing nintendo to control them in this way.
       
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      tech3475

      tech3475 Loyal Member

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      In some ways this C64 classic does interest me, but only if done it right e.g. it's a real (not too impractical) keyboard and you can load your own games onto it from images. Might get it as a gift for my dad.

      The only positive thing Sega have done in this field is allow people to buy ROMs through Steam, otherwise they should have revoked atgames license years ago for poor quality emulation.

      While I agree Nintendo have ****ed up with their handling of the situation, there is a market for these things either from a gift perspective, a simplicity perspective, a collectors perspective or it being officially licensed.

      In many ways I'm getting sick of the 'use an RPi lol' responses because they're ignoring fundamental issues with their argument e.g. not everyone likes to pirate and (at RRP) these aren't bad value (compared to the VC or the actual carts).

      It's actually funny in a way seeing people try to push people the same way the anti-piracy people do.

      That said, I do think people are mugs if they spend more than the RRP, they're just part of the problem.
       
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      AlbedoAtoned

      AlbedoAtoned Loyal Member

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      Sega's one of the only ones doing things the right way actually. By selling the player the roms, the player can choose to play the games they bought on any platform they choose. Sega's emulator on steam then competes with whatever emulator that somebody could play their games on and while Sega may want people to play using the official option, the fact the user can choose not to use it in lieu of an alternatives speaks well to Sega's confidence. Add to this that users can buy these roms mostly à la carte at good prices shows more confidence. Even then, the user can often buy them at even cheaper prices. A few months back, I ended up buying 30 sega classics for a little over 8 dollars.

      The majority of people don't care about emulation quality or accuracy. What they want is the ability to buy and play the games they buy at a cheap price, with good visual and audio quality. And the more games they can buy is even better. For this reason, most of those atgames consoles do sell, otherwise Atgames wouldn't keep putting them out. But even if you do care about quality of emulation, you're not limited to that. At least for the games that are available as roms you can play them on whatever platform you want. I don't consider an extra option a bad thing. Even if I wouldn't buy one of ATgames consoles, or any other one of those consoles that promise built in games, I don't think it's a bad thing to have the option.

      The thing is, that when you actually look at the nes and snes classic you realize that they're not very good either. There's a lot of cut corners. The snes classic even has the same hardware as the nes classic and it already had problems. And yet people keep buying them. Well, scalpers do at least.

      When you ask around though you'll find that though varied, the reasons don't really tend to include emulation accuracy or quality. In truth, if the nes and snes classic ran like shit they would still be heavily demanded merely because it has Nintendo's name.

      But at this point the biggest reasons people have given me for wanting or buying one are.

      1. It can be hacked and because the controller is pretty good, it seemed like a good way to play older snes or nes games. A good chunk of the games are already owned, but more likely, piracy is not a concern.

      2. Nostalgia. Even many people who don't play games at all want one because they think it will become a collector's item and worth a lot someday, problem is they're probably paying scalpers more for it than they would ever make back.

      3. People who want to buy a lot of games for a better price. Nintendo doesn't have a good track record when it comes to old game pricing. Unfortunately for them, the high price due to scalping makes this null.

      People who are buying from scalpers aren't really adding to the problem. Because when you understand how a market works, you know that scalping is a problem caused at least one of two things, sometimes both. 1 low price and high demand. Nintendo once again chose to keep supply low, but they didn't raise prices to accomodate this. This causes people to go out and buy a bunch in bulk to sell for profit. But if people are indeed paying the scalpers for it instead of holding back, then the market has decided that that is the value of those items. If people are willing to pay $300 for an item, then logically that item is worth $300. Scalping can be solved by either increasing the price to match the value the market put on it, which pretty much stops scalping since it increases the initial risk of buying to sell, as well as reducing the potential profit margins. OR Nintendo could increase their supply by a lot. This would drive the value lower, potentially even to the price they indicated since they wouldn't be as rare anymore. You really should not be blaming people actually paying the scalpers because they are the ones that wanted it the most, so much they were willing to pay a high price for it.

      Rather the blame should go towards Nintendo for both fostering this sort of culture that caused this. Nintendo has for years tried to sell to casual gamers and nongamers. Take a look at their ads, they generally try to seem like everybody has one of their platforms. Especially with the switch commercials where they try to sell it as "you won't look awkward taking this out in public". Nintendo also has consistently failed to meet any sort of demand they create. Their strategy depends entirely on selling to scalpers. It's absolutely scummy imo. And because of this consistent failure to meet demand, the items they put out are automatically considered limited, even when they say they are not. Despite selling so poorly, there are people still looking for a new wii u.

      I see it time and time again, it's not that people want to pirate things. Hell, most people who emulate loathe pirates. But this sort of piracy is a result of failing to actually fill a market. When people tell others to just build an R-Pi, they aren't trying to convince them to become hardcore pirates. They're just tired of people bitching about how Nintendo won't meet demand that they themselves created. Add to this that since Nintendo can't let their greed up for even one second enough to actually sell these games at a decent price and many have just become tired of all the BS.

      But despite Sega letting ATgames make consoles for them, the roms you buy from Sega can be used legitimately on a R-PI. Imagine if Nintendo's VC games were all roms you could use on an R-PI or elswhere. They may just happen to gain the value Nintendo thinks they are worth. But Nintendo hasn't. Like whenever a publisher actively blocks people from buying their games from overseas, at some point, everybody just gives up. As greedy as they are, they must not really want your money and you have to stop destroying yourself in order to hand it to them.

      Because Nintendo has consistently decided that gamers are not their target audience, gamers have been deciding to let Nintendo do whatever it wants, even if it destroys them in the process. Because they tried for years to tell Nintendo that it was a stupid idea. Nintendo shunned the gamer, so gamers shunned Nintendo. It's interesting that just a year ago I argued with many people over the nes classic about how you might as well build an R-Pi so you actually get your money's worth. They all used the piracy argument. Now they all use emulators, some even did build an R-Pi. Now they argue you should just build an R-Pi. They got tired of fighting over a nearly nonexistent stock of nes classics.
       
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      tech3475

      tech3475 Loyal Member

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      No offence, but you made this post too long for me to be able to respond to everything which making a small essay.

      I have nothing against people criticising Nintendo, which they are deserving of for many reason, my issue has been with people criticising those who want to own/buy a classic edition (obviously I have criticised a subset of those).

      I do think those who pay more than the RRP are part of the problem because it creates a market for the scalpers, I'm not blaming them entirely, just that they're part of the problem. If tomorrow everyone stopped buying from scalpers then they have less of a reason to buy units and that's a few more units at rrp.

      That said, I would rather have Nintendo allow official access to ROMs like Sega.

      I think Sega could find someone better than atgames to make their plug and play systems, there's a difference between less than perfect emulation and the **** they've produced in the past. It is bad because it makes the games look bad and I'd recommend people just use an RPi over these for that reason. The only thing I have liked about atgames was that they allowed original carts to be used.
       
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      GaryOPA

      GaryOPA Master Phoenix Admin Staff Member Top-Dog Brass

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      Personally, I rather see real FPGA based machines, that emulate the original hardware in silicon, not just a cheap ARM cpu running software emulator cores.

      https://hackaday.io/project/20826-tms9900-compatible-cpu-core-in-vhdl

      http://harbaum.org/till/mist/index.shtml

      Those type projects I would support. -- It would be nice if the this C64 project does this, or even better if Nintendo did, but sadly, everyone wants to cash in cheap and make the most profit, and most of them steal retroarch emulator cores for their projects. -- Doing actual FPGA ones require some 'tecchnical' knowledge on how the real hardware works, and skills to convert it into vhdl cores.
       
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      AlbedoAtoned

      AlbedoAtoned Loyal Member

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      The ones who create the market for scalpers are Nintendo themselves though. Scalping is caused when a product is both low in supply and low in price. This causes the product to have a high value that far surpasses the price asked for it. Whether you like it or not, as long as these conditions are in place, scalping will be always be a problem. What happens if you or I choose to not buy something we want due to price, we don't get the item. Because the scalper is the only way to buy these items, due to how few units are being sold. At the end of the day, you either buy it and get he item or you don't. Personally, I'm fine not buying one, I've got a pc and many consoles I could just as easily play these games on.

      But I'm not the market for this. Nintendo and their fanboys have built up this idea that any unauthorized use of emulation is wrong. If somebody wants to play these games and thinks that it's wrong to play them in some emulator, their options are actually quite limited. Even 300 which seems high is pretty much a steal compared to going out and buying all of the old cartridges, many of which go for hundreds of dollars even. While I personally think that 300 is too much (and even 80 is too much for 20-30 year old games), it's still far cheaper than buying the cartridges and despite the emulator that is used being too basic for me, it's more featured than playiung just straight on the old consoles themselves.

      Again, scalping isn't going to go away and blaming the consumer for wanting a product enough to actually pay for it is misguided, especially since Nintendo themselves have created this mindset in their fanbase to dislike emulation. This is what Nintendo wants. They don't give a shit if you don't buy the snes classic or if you buy from a scalper, because either way they got paid.

      For sega, I don't consider poor emulation to be such a big crime. They sold me the roms first and foremost, so I can play them on their emulator on steam, or I can play them on any other platform with emulators for that system. The consoles that AT games put out aren't the only way to play these old games, even in the absence of some plug and play console. Sega themselves have put out collections of games for practically every platform under the sun and you can generally find them for cheap prices. That's far more preferable to how Nintendo does it where even just one or two games cost the same as the Sega's collections and you either have to buy them on every platform Nintendo puts out and if you've actually used them you'll notice that most of their emulators aren't actually very good either, no better than the emulators that Sega uses for their classics. Or you pay an arm and a leg for one of these super limited nes or snes classic console.

      Ultimately, Sega could put out a console with much better emulation accuracy, however, there really isn't a reason for them to. There's really not as much of a market for a genesis classic as there is for something like the snes classic. Again, the people who buy these things don't normally care a thing about accuracy, just as long as something doesn't look or sound like shit. If you care anything about emulation accuracy, even if you aren't super strict about it, you have several options available to you. And since Sega has not taken a negative stance against emulating their older games like Nintendo has, doing something like build a retro-pi isn't something many would discourage.
       
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      tech3475

      tech3475 Loyal Member

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      Again Nintendo aren't blameless in this and people are willing to pay the high prices, low supply + people willing to pay = scalpers.

      I also don't care whether someone chooses to pirate or not, the issue I have is the people who are saying you should only pirate even if the other person doesn't want to (the inverse anti-piracy message).

      BTW, it is still possible to get these things at RRP, it's just way more difficult than it should be.

      In regards to Sega, the problem is that atgames systems have run and sounded like ****. I wasn't talking about 'perfect' emulation, just adequate emulation and their systems do sell, maybe not as much but well enough with demand at christmas and I think consumers should get reasonable quality.

      I'd like to close with the all time classic sonic theme produced by an atgames system:
       
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      AlbedoAtoned

      AlbedoAtoned Loyal Member

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      The problem of scalping would go away immediately if Nintendo did one of these things

      1. Increase supply to meet demand.

      2. Increase the cost of their products to keep up with the value.

      Perhaps a little of both even. The thing is, Nintendo has consistently done this where they raise up hype for something and then completely fail to meet demand. At one point I was willing to consider maybe it as just incompetence, but it's happened so many times over the years that it's harder to take it as anything but their will to do so.

      In a market for a product, everything takes on a value. And that value is decided by the people in it. If sales are too low, the price may be higher than the value, so in such a scenario, many will choose to lower the price to match it. This is how the gaming market works in general. It happens the other way as well. Whenever demand rises for a product, the price will also generally rise as well. Many don't like when that happens.

      Again scalping occurs when the actual value of a product is much higher than the price, while the supply is low. If you want to tackle scalping what you do is either increase the supply or increase the price. Increasing the supply lowers the value of each individual unit, since they aren't so rare. Increasing the price closes the gap in how much profit can be made. If less profit can be made, then less people will scalp. Also since the initial price is increased the risk is higher.

      In short, this is a problem with the supply side of the market, not the demand side. In general, it's almost always a problem with the supply side.

      And as for piracy. I don't really care either way, I don't condone or condemn it. That said, if somebody actually wants to buy their games, then that is a good thing imo. It's up to the supply side of the market to cater to that demand. While not perfect, Sega has been doing it far better than Nintendo is. In fact Nintendo has been doing it incredibly poorly over the years. Again, Sega has released a compilation of their games on practically every platform, and on steam the games you buy come in an unencrypted format specifically so you can play them however you like. When I suggested that building a retropi is not a bad idea if you want something like the nes or snes classic for sega games, It was with the idea that a person would probably be buying these games from steam rather than downloading them from pirate sites. If you want to play sega's games it's a lot easier to not pirate most of the time. And again, if the prices charged is still too much, I regularly see sales on steam and other sites for them in usually a pick # for $ type of deal. I ended up getting 30 games for $8 and while right now I don't have every sega classic on steam, that and a sonic humble bundle has put me pretty close to getting them all. And yeah that ATGames emulation is pretty bad, (but again it's not really any worse than what I've played from vc games.) But again that's far from the only way to play older sega games.

      For Nintendo, it's a lot harder and a lot more expensive. Their VC emulation is bad as well. I remember back on the wii and many of the games I bought ended up playing so terribly that I ended up playing them in a homebrew emulator for the console.And when the wii u came out, again I found games didn't really play very well. They ended up making the wii vc look good in comparison. Also they make you but the game again for every platform you want to play it on. Other than that, you can buy an expensive nes or snes classic to play older Nintendo games. Or you could buy the old cartridges and play it on a nes or snes but the same could be said about Sega's games. Similarly you can substitute a retron5 for the actual consoles in many situations. Regardless, out of the two, it's not Sega that is pushing customers to pirate their games. You keep bringing up the AT games console as if that is the only way to legitimately play those older games but it's not. The alternative isn't piracy, it's one of the many other options available to you. For me, I just play them on my pc. There are several emulators to choose from and the emulator that is used officially isn't too bad either. The steam workshop is also available for it so players can make and play romhacks. Said romhacks also come unencrypted.
       

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