hit tracker

MS set to quadruple Kinect accuracy throught dashboard upate

Discussion in 'Archived General Gaming News' started by danight, Dec 18, 2010.

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    iLLNESS

    iLLNESS Loyal Member

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    m$ isn't stupid. i'd agree with you on this. sure, using this feature on first gen games would likely not work the greatest. but look at how much things improve over time. compare a 1st gen 360 launch lineup with games we have now. it'd be safe to say developers barely know how to make good use of kinect or even move (more so kinect though since most developers have been working on move since the wii came out).

    its all speculation.. but its obvious m$ isn't letting kinect dissapear and forcing something or introducing something this early into kinects life which some users say would cripple the device would be a horrible move, and from a business perspective i dont see that happening. so im going to bet that this isn't going to be an issue for devs to use. if anything, hackers are going to have a hay day with it if it can detect fingers and your whole body.
     
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    Tsujin

    Tsujin Loyal Member

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    The problem is there is nothing else to cut, theres no limitation on how much, or how little of the systems resources a kinect application uses, that's entirely up to the programmer, however the more processing power they use on Kinect (currently), the less power is available for the application they're adding the kinect support for.
    To add additional skeletal mappings and other such features to Kinect increases the amount of data being set from the device to the 360 for processing, and more data to process means more cycles used - while i'm sure they will allow the programmer to set exactly what data is pulled from Kinect, it significantly decreases the flexibility available.

    Lets say you've set up your game and by default the engine handling kinect is using 20%, now lets say you have a mini game which switches the parameters for the kinect device, to optimize itself for tracking hands, the opportunity is there, but at the same time, you cant just shut engine down, completely remove it from memory and start up a new seeded process at the drop of a hat, which means any such changes in tracking parameters would require noticable loading periods.

    Then theres the problem where someone wants to actually use the full feature set at the same time, doing so would put immense strain on the 360 to process the data whilst running the game,, within the region of 40-50% of overall system speed, seveerly limiting available power for physics/graphics.

    Even if you were to write an engine that could change instruction sets on the fly to run load-less process switching, you encounter the problem where calibration becomes an issue, and even if, by some miracle, you solved the calibration of two seperate tracking routines, the last problem on the list is that a dynamically switching engine would need a dynamicly switching resource allowance, which can only be done by limiting the resources available to the actual game and allowing the device free use of the remaining pool, resulting in relatively basic games.

    To put it bluntly, the more complex the tracking, the more basic the games will be, and in cases where the tracking is complex but the graphics are good too, the tracking poll rate will be cut down to compensate, resulting in higher lag and lower accuracy of tracking.

    Head tracking or basic gesture such as leaning or tracking the location of the player (just location and leans not the whole skeleton), doesnt require much in the way of resources, hence why it's possible in forza 4 - hand tracking doesnt add much to the processing requirement either - it's skeletal tracking, and multi-person tracking that pulls the big numbers as far as cpu cycles goes.

    To put it bluntly, it's coded (at least their tech demo was) to prioritize only hand tracking, with tracking for head and body location dumbed down to 4 samples per second - since that's all thats needed for that game

    If you complicate matters further by tracking individual digits as well as the skeletal tracking the resources required would be stupidly high.
     
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    mulekick

    mulekick Loyal Member

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    I thought zeus posted this article since the title has a typo.
     
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    coresnake

    coresnake Loyal Member

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    Wow the MC official MS defense force is out in full as usual.

    Is everyone forgetting how the REAL reason the Kinect is nerfed is because cheap ass MS removed the extra processor from the unit? It has NOTHING to do with USB, this is just some new hype bullshit and you're all falling for it.

    Idiots.
     
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    GT-RRR

    GT-RRR Loyal Member

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    So take back all the sh*t that's spewed from your mouths saying Move is a Wii clone/copy/knock-off, because as you say "your a moron if you think that's the only difference".

    Move is as much of an upgrade of the Wii as Kinect is an upgrade of the EyeToy, although I can't say that can I, as you'll just spit your dummy out and just try to back up your case with paragraph after paragraph of irrelevant nonsense, and you f*cking know it.

    Well ofcourse you would, I wouldn't be surprised if you have an MS branded Tattoo on yourself.
     
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    sonk

    sonk Guest



    what anyone or especially this Guy Tsujin who claims to be a DEV, matters not what they say.

    Ask yourself why Microsoft games which are on a smaller capacity format are able to have the same graphic quality as PS3 which has a huge Blue-ray disk...

    the Answer is compression techniques.

    The Kinect team is applying the same principle here with data input by the Kinect device.

    Read the first phrase again in the square outlined area...

    The are building a compression engine to compress data on the fly which will enable larger amounts of data to be processed.

    Tsujin talks smart and sounds like he knows a little but he is not a software engineer and in no way shape or form be able to tell any of us what the Device or the 360 would be capable of through the planned compression techniques being developed by Microsoft.


     
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    GT-RRR

    GT-RRR Loyal Member

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    Atleast he can make conversation without pouring petroleum everywhere for fanboys to spark a flaming inferno.

    Not you, 'others'.
     
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    sonk

    sonk Guest

    I here you and Tsujin sounds like an older, mature person which i can relate to.

    My problem with his comments are that his arguments are from a DEV standpoint and he is assuming that nothing can be done to lower CPU use by Kinect. Software engineers are great at adjusting and squeezing power from somewhere else. I dont think Microsoft would even try something like this if it was not possible.

    If they do achieve what the article says they are setting out to do, we will all benefit from some of the most amazing experiences possible.

    Everyone here including the DEV,s and smart people need to open their mind and not spout numbers and theories... these are meant to be proven wrong and will be...
     
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    Tsujin

    Tsujin Loyal Member

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    Storage capacity has absolutely nothing to do with graphics for 99.9% of games, for the other 0.1% it only makes a difference because of how the textures are compressed to fit the disk.

    When a texture is put in to ram it is NOT compressed, so compression methods don't change a damn thing either.

    360 looks better than ps3 in most multi platform games for one reason and one reason only, the GPU in the 360 is superior to the one in the PS3, anyone who claims otherwise, or gives some other reason is talking out of their arse.

    Compressing data from kinect to be sent to the 360 is only a means to circumvent usb transfer limitations on the port, the end result is that the 360 still receives more data than it currently does, with the added drawback of having to decompress the data too.

    I've worked on both the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 versions of quite possibly the most successful racer released this year, i think i'm capable of understanding the Xbox 360, it's XDK and Kinect thank you very much.
     
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    iLLNESS

    iLLNESS Loyal Member

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    from a hardware standpoint, please explain how move is an upgrade to the wii and not just a clone..

    start with the basics... how the move controller is interpreted by the ps3... how the controller itself senses direction, etc etc.

    then show us the difference between the two and how one is better then the other. if you can do this, using facts and not opinions,i will accept it. but i have a funny feeling you will have an extremely hard time trying to prove to us, the users at maxconsole that move is not the same technology as the wii is using.
     
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    iLLNESS

    iLLNESS Loyal Member

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    wow, first post too!

    you seem like a goldfish, forgetting what you said 5mins prior to the statement.
     
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    danight

    danight Loyal Member

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    lol... GT-RRR was like "yeah you tel them tsujin, you tell them all !!!!!!!
    until he saw
    He was like "NOOOOOOO!!!!! he is a xbot now!!!!! NOOOOOO!!!! Ill never join the darkside!!!!!
    dead silence...chirp chirp chirp!!!!

    all jokes aside though.

    Accuracy in motion gaming doesn't always mean a better game. Sometimes simple is just better. Like nintendo did with wii. Make it fun for all ages and it will attract people of all ages.
    even with wii motion + more people have worried about wiifit. Not for accuracy but because it does things that applies to non games or a broader audience.

    But true 1:1 motion is something people cray for and when they get close you never hear it mentioned again.

    But the baseline for this article not only for gaming but for features like a total cool dashboard or a minority report dashboard could be there with this type of update.
    Not all of kinect is based from gaming but a loyal ps3 fan i know told me kinect rocks and the telephone stuff its really cool. He hasnt owned a xbox 360 until he got 1 w/ kinect.

    We know it has more potential and this type of update could open it up alot.

    But many of us thought this gen is kinda a beta test for next gen motion controls. Then we saw wii motion +, then move then kinect and over a short period of time people have got on the band wagon for motion gaming. No we arent putting down the controllers for ever or asking for wands for all games. But our way of thinking as gamers is expanding and thats why news like this is really cool.

    But Microsoft being a tech giant in the world, if anyone can figure it out.
     
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    billysastard

    billysastard MaxConsole Co-Admin Loyal Member

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    i'm afraid that i'm going to come down on the side of the sdf on this one, kinects depth sensor does have its advantages however depth location can be done with both move and wii remote + but if with its present setup it can use upto 20% of the 360 cpu then updating both the kinect and 360 firmware to add compression and resolution is going to require more processor power to decompress, they have already said that they cant use much more throughput on the usb itself because it could block other devices (like wifi), the move may be able to improve accuracy and depth issues if sony ever take time out from doing security updates to work on the problem but as it stands it is far more accurate than kinect and close to the wii other than its head on shooting which seems not as good as on the wii.

    one thing i did wonder is why ms didnt copy the wiimotion camera and fit a wider angle lens so you didnt require such a large distance from camera to player, the only time i'd need to use 7 feet is if i used your shape and it needed me laid down on a yoga mat, another thing i noticed is the ability of the camera to see me seems much better on the ps eye and wiimotion (best on ps eye) than a kinect at a friends house.
     
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    demon50000

    demon50000 Loyal Member

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    Not cool @Tsujin

    Well you develop for ms xbox360 sdk. I find it hard to believe. As there is a major miss conception in your information. Actully there are a few. You do know that The CPU in the 360 sdk does not handel any of the data cycles from kinect. It does how ever decode packet information from USB devices. If you how every do open your data cycle log in your sdk construcktor you will see that kinect information cycles are handle directly via the gpu. Via stream in. Every body thinks the kinect CPU was taken out but infact you would know that there is still a CPU there but it is only there to compress information packets to the gpu. It's an interpiter on a chip. Now you should be telling people the truth about the data therput of kinect. It is a lot more faster then your average USB 2.0. And hence this is the problem with the sdk at this point in time. The sdk firmware at this time is locked down to 16mb persecond. This has been like this from the first sdk in 2004. Only because of USB bandwidth with controller and battery charge cables needing there own set bandwinth of the buss. There are 3 USB devices on the 360 and sdk. 16mb x 3 = 48mbps. Now the cool tech part open your constructor. If you are using ur engine constructor. You will see the USB transit buss transfer rate. Now put a USBmemory stick or a control in the back side USB port on the sdk. Yes now you see This USB transfer rate is not capped. With the back end usb . It has a max transfer
    read or wright @ 156mbps. What I don't get with all these dev's is how can you all spread garbage about kinect.. When you all know that the new updated sdk can do 1 on 1 motion tracking of two people. and for the lag doom Sayers. Your going to eat your words. But still ms should have put a 720p res cam inside kinect. But dual 480 with zoom will have to do.
     
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    coresnake

    coresnake Loyal Member

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    demon50000 no-one is saying that the Kinect doesn't have ANY CPU, the fact is that there used to be an extra much more capable CPU in it which took the processing load off the console itself. At that point the selling price for the device was also lower than it is now by more than $50 which means that MS did it purely out of GREED.

    Compress the data all you want, all you are doing is saving on the piss-poor limited USB 2.0 bandwidth anyway, it won't even make that much of a difference in the long run because you still have to waste GPU power to decompress the data.

    I also like how all of you claiming to be professional developers can barely even speak legible English, what a bunch of jokers.

    Kinect won't reach acceptable fidelity until the next generation, just accept that fact already and let the casuals enjoy their bullshit mini-games for the rest of this gen.
     
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    iLLNESS

    iLLNESS Loyal Member

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    little birdie says they're not a dev, they just knows them ;)
     
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    demon50000

    demon50000 Loyal Member

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    Nice try

    "No"we are devs .... And just cos I ant a good speller doesn't mean ****. If grammar was a factor for coding then yeah you might have a point. But I don't think our bosses would be to worried about our spelling. What they want is people who can code. But if you had any idea about developing, you would know that c++, c#, or even basic c. Is ten times harder to learn. Then the English language. And I am typing this up from an iPhone. Work won't allow our terminal to go online. They don't even like phones.

    And in regards to kinect. The reason why ms took out the internal CPU. Is becouse it would have been dated when the next gen console lunch. So the smart thing ms did was leave the data transfer chip inside kinect. It's future proof . 512mb+ a second of packet information can stream. Off course not to the 360. But do the math sdf. Future proof... I am shore Sony will have a new camera soon enough. But move is still very good. But I much prefer what kinect can do. And soon enough will have a hardcore attachment. With better depth and more way more points of intrest.
     
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    DLiver420

    DLiver420 Loyal Member

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    It means quite a lot, actually. It (most likely, one can't properly judge another over the interwebs) means that you came from a low-income family, graduated (or not?) in the bottom third of your high school class, and any advanced education you received was at the technical or community college level. You are more likely to stay with your current employer, less likely to receive a promotion, and (statistically) much less likely to invest in your retirement than those who can spell properly and use proper grammar. You also have a shorter life expectancy. All true.
     
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    sonk

    sonk Guest

    DLiver420

    Take your bullheaded, arrogant, racial sterotyping comments somewhere else. Its not wanted here. All of your comments are absolutely meaningless. Find a hole to hide yourself in and dont bother coming out. the world needs a lot less of your type, BRO.

    If you have an intelligent remark to make, do so. Otherwise get lost.
     
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    demon50000

    demon50000 Loyal Member

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    Lies

    Well that would mean that 70% of the human race is doomed. Buy your theory. And I can tell you mister. Your notion of life is roughing. Cos you are 99% more Likely to die from a robbery. Or from a jalious family member who craves for your wealth. As not every human mind is created the same. Every brain is wired different. I have the basics of the English language down. And it is not relied on in my position. As we have corporate suits to represent our company. They have better humen relation skills then you. But they can't code one line.

    So you should go back under your rock. It people like you who make the humen race a disgusting face. And I can tell you I make way more money then you will see in your life. But when I die ol give mine to foundations who want to help people. In joy your own living he'll. I shore woudnt want to befriends with you. Ol pass this comment around to my dev friends. You can expect an ass tearing. For a comment like this.
     

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